HELP!!!! serious problem.

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by PoodleMommy, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    Just in case anyone forgot:

    Chloe is 11 months old, Armani is 2.5 years old... I have had both (yorkies) since they were puppies. Armani is neutered (has been since 6 months old) Chloe was just spayed a few weeks ago.

    Armani was raised with the poodles and has always been good with other dogs... when I first got Chloe he wasnt super pleased but got over it pretty quickly and they have been perfect together... they love each other, lay together, lick each others faces, play, etc. Chloe has had a lot of contact with the poodles also and gets along well with them.

    Within the last month or so we had a few instances where Chloe snapped at Armani, there was always food or toys involved, she was removed from the situation for a few minutes and it ended as quick as it started.

    Today out of the blue she ONLY wants to attack him no matter what... it started over nothing... there was NO food or toys in sight... she just started attacking him... multiple times I put her in the crate and then let her back out and she attacked him immediately. She is super focused on him, I cant get her to focus on anything but him... she has this weird look in her eyes like she is possessed, I dont know I cant explain it.

    How can they go from loving each other to her wanting to kill him in literally minutes?!

    And I KNOW I am not handling it right... so tell me what I am supposed to do?
     
  2. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    When something like this happens so suddenly and with no obvious explanation....like fighting over toys or food, the first thing I would want to rule out is a medical cause, then go from there. She was just spayed. Perhaps she's feeling irritable and there may be something about her hormone changes affecting her. You might talk to your vet and describe everything. It could also be something else that he might want to check....like thyroid.

    Then if nothing can be found to explain this erratic change in behavior, some kind of "re-assocation" type plan might help. Otherwise, in the meantime, it would be best to keep them separated so no one gets hurt....maybe with a baby gate or crate and rotate. Switch rooms, something. You might try associating the presence of Armani with good treats and avoid punishing her in his presence or getting nervous or upset if she "goes off."

    How distressing this must be for you. Give your vet a call first and make sure there's no medical issue. I hope this can be rectified. (((hugs)))
     
  3. Maura

    Maura New Member

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    Where did you get Choe from?
     
  4. Tsume'sMom

    Tsume'sMom New Member

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    Step one : Vet visit for FULL check up on both dogs
    Step two : Get a good professional on the line (trainer or behaviorist) to help you

    In a pinch : get a copy of Ian Dunbar's DVD on fighting.
     
  5. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    a medical issue is really what I was thinking also... it just came on too suddenly and is such a drastic change I feel like.

    What exactly do I ask a vet to do though?

    Armani was in last week for a physical and Chloe just had a lot of bloodwork before her surgery.

    Also just a random question but I just (two days ago) started Chloe on denamarin (liver supplement) and changed her food... neither of these could be the problem right?

    Im just so frustrated... why cant she just tell me whats wrong?!!!!
     
  6. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Yeah, that's possible.... I don't know what denamarin is but I do know that changing diet can change a dog's personality a little bit.

    I'd suggest just letting the vet know what's going on and ask him for a full check-up to see if she might be in any pain. You can also have him do a full thyroid panel to make sure thyroids are ok; he probably didn't look at this in the pre-surgery bloodwork.
     
  7. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    absolutely going on a new med could cause it! Also, perhaps while they were playing, Armani accidentally hurt her and she's holding a grudge? I'd get someone to help you ASAP and start by walking them together side by side with lots of treats and praise, gradually getting them closer together.
     
  8. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    It could be the new meds, new food, or something like that.

    when these little tifs happen over the family dogs at home, I take both dogs for a walk together. ive noticed it helps, maybe try that for these 2?
     
  9. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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  10. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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  11. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    sorry double post, no idea how that happened!
     
  12. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    I think ado makes a good point. Even though the dogs don't view the room itself as punishing, any time they are forced to go somewhere they don't particularly care to go, it is aversive....

    But the real test is not what we SPECULATE might be aversive or not, but how the dogs react in those situations. So, when you take the dog to another room, is he excited to go in, does he go in willingly but grumpily, or does he balk at going in altogether? When you go to let him out of the room, does he run out as fast as he can, come out moderately happily, or stay in the room comfortably for a long time afterwards? Your answers to these two questions will determine whether going in the room was aversive or not, and it if was aversive, it could be contributing to the problem.

    I also agree with this.... after the vet check just to make sure.
     
  13. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    but Lizzy how do you know when it has gone too far and you need to step in?

    neither has ever drawn blood, made a scratch anything but it SOUNDS terrible.
     
  14. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Serious fights are usually silent. If they're making a lot of noise it's probably for show.

    As Ado and I both mentioned (or, she mentioned and I agreed with), unless the dogs are drawing blood it's probably not a serious fight. A very good trainer I knew told me that her mantra is dog fights are rarely fatal. They look and sound scary to us, but to the dogs they're just show. My friend has dogs that play VERY roughly and it looks like fighting - lots of mouthing in particular - but afterwards neither dog even has saliva on them.... the dogs are not actually even touching each other, it's just that they move so quickly and have reactions that are so much faster than ours, that it looks serious when they're not even touching.

    That said, I would suggest putting all the "resources" - food, food bowls, toys, etc. - away for now to prevent nasty behaviors around them. Then if the dogs "fight," they need to learn how to communicate to each other when it's gone too far, which means that you will need to step out of the way and let them work it out on their own.
     
  15. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    all toys and chews have been away, the only thing they get right now is food and they get it in separate places.

    should I have my cardiologist on hand when I let them fight it out (kidding, sort of, :p )
     
  16. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Ozzy is very dog aggressive on leash, and mildly has an alpha wannabe personality anyway. He has started a few fights even off leash when we introduce him to a new dog. Over time, I've seen and learned it's just best to let him and the other dog duke it out. They reach an understanding or a draw, shake it off and go about their way. If I interrupt them Oz will just start it all over again.

    I WILL stop it if they draw blood, or if the other dog is "more boss" than Ozzy is, and Oz lays down and then tries to start it again when the other dog moves off. I've noticed that during all of these "battles" neither dog has ever drawn blood. They're making a hell of a racket, but they aren't hurting each other.
     
  17. Brattina88

    Brattina88 Active Member

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    I totally agree about the vet checks. Since Armani is the one beig attacked, I'd be worried and get him checked as well! I've heard several owners tell me that their dog will fight a weaker dog, or there dogs started getting into fights and she took them to the vet and it turned out one of them had cancer (Im sorry I am NOT trying to freak you out or anything!)
    is it possible there is a hidden bone or toy in the room? Maybe shoved under the couch or something? Trying to think of other possbilities...

    The females can hold Really Good Grudges ;) that's why the B* term applies them them and humans LOL

    I secondthe walk idea... Sometimes it helps.

    I'm one of those that Do Not tolerate fighting At All, so I'm no help there (with letting them sort it out) :p


    If all else fails, try some click to calm excersizes ?
     
  18. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    I definitely agree with this. In my experience with pack order, it's not something you personally should try to change, unless physical harm is coming to one dog. Then definitely step in. Otherwise I leave it up to the dogs. If a dog wants to be the 'alpha' dog and if the other dog is fine, why try to change it to fit what you would like? If Armani is fine with being in the lower position, I see no reason to worry about it. What is Armani doing when Chloe growls at him?

    I don't tolerate fighting in my house, either. Unless there IS an issue. Fighting over silly stuff like who's going out the door isn't ok here. Fighting over food bowls isn't ok when everyone has there own bowl set before them. If one dog is chewing a bone and another dog gets up in that dog's face, then I will allow a growl. There's no reason why the dog should have to put up with a dog in it's face while peacefully chewing a bone (we have one dog here who will get. up. in. your. face. while another dog is chewing a bone, lol).

    It's okay for dogs to get into tuffs about pack order. It's natural for them. It's scary for us when it happens for the first time, but most dogs aren't going to go further than necessasy in order to get the message across, in my experience. And if they do, it's okay to break them up.

    Hope that made some sense, lol.
     
  19. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    I WOULD NOT let them fight it out while Chloe's still recovering!! After she heals up it's another story.
     
  20. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    This is very odd... but I came to my parents today and they are totally fine.

    Maybe they hate my place and want to go live with the grandparents :(

    I was kind of worried about coming because I didnt want the poodles to get caught up in this mess especially since Elle is slightly reactive sometimes but everyone has been playing, there are toys all over here and everything is just fine.
     

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