Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by avaloncoolies, Dec 14, 2012.
Purple is definitely the best.
I am sure that you are wrong. Write me in PM to discuss.
^This is exactly where I stand as well. For most of us it has absolutely nothing to do with deciding one person's dogs are better than another's. We may be interested in the breed as a whole but are turned off by the lack of health testing/evaluation which is absolutely imperative to many of us for a future sport prospect. So finding someone who seems to be educated regarding merleXmerle and apparently does hip X-rays...but then doesn't have those Xrays evaluated or recorded publicly for the sake of helping to build the breed's health history database and promote making better decisions across the board...well it just really leaves me befuddled.
So I can't help but ask...Why?
So far your answers have been more or less -- well I don't do it so don't judge me because these other guys are worse. But the question remains...why?
I don't think I've "thrown you to the wolves" at all. I have repeatedly said it's your choice and I doubt anyone here will change your mind. I'm not in the market for a K/Coolie but if I were, at this point I could just wait for the chance to get one from one from the US, from health tested parents. I would certainly consider a puppy from you, if your dogs were health tested. Without the certification though or at least some "proof", I admit it seems a bit...shady from an outsider's perspective. Maybe I'm missing something though. Perhaps you have a written evaluation from an orthopedic specialist stating your dog's hips and elbows are normal? And the CERF form saying your dogs are normal eyed? As for my friend, she has ended up with two dysplastic performance dogs (not Koolies obviously) so health testing, as well as picking a breed with a lower risk is extremely important to her. I don't know that she is missing out by not getting a K/Coolie. They seem like really neat, fun dogs but certainly, there are lots of breeds just as capable of being good performance dogs. Breeds where health testing is the norm.
As it stands right now, it seems the serious dog people who are getting K/Coolies are the ones who absolutely want a K/Coolie more than anything else and are willing to take a chance on the unknown to have one. And it's great that you are able to find your puppies appropriate homes within that group of people. But don't kid yourself, for as many people that are willing to look past the health testing issue there's probably at least 5 who love the breed but aren't. Once puppies start to become available in the US from health tested parents, you may find people's willingness to look past that issue is going to greatly diminish. You may find yourself scrambling to catch up with the newbies who are the first K/Coolie breeders to fully test/certify their breeding dogs. Or you could just as easily become the first to do so yourself.
It doesn't matter to me, I'm not in the market for a K/Coolie puppy. I'm just offering an outsider's perspective, as someone's who's been involved in the dog world for what's getting to be a long time now. I'm not bashing you, throwing you to the wolves or anything else. What you do with your dogs is certainly your business and again, I don't think your mind will be changed. But it isn't reasonable to think health testing will always be something people will look past in the breed. It is right now only because people have no other choice.
Health testing is an oft-discussed issue amongst Chazzers, it's something a lot of us feel strongly about. I'm sure a number of people quietly (and maybe not so quietly) dislike that Sara and Linds have dogs from untested parents. Personally, I like that they themselves are doing testing to start the process in motion for their own potential breeding plans. It's a positive direction.
I have a feeling that their breeder would have many similar questions posed to him if he were to join Chaz. It isn't a witchhunt, many Chazzers are just genuinely curious. I haven't seen anyone in this thread get bashy or rude towards you, just a lot of honest questions.
Just my 2 cents! Your dogs are absolutely beautiful and based on knowing Remix, you produce really awesome dogs.
I haven't read the whole thread since my last post so maybe this was covered but I do wonder if other Koolie or Coolie (pick one name people!) breeders on other lists get the same treatment. I wonder if the breeder who produced Traveler and the gang has been grilled and relatively cornered. I mean, have his buyers said these things to him? It seems he produces a lot of puppies for no one to be concerned yet, have any of them shown up with joint issues or is it just avalons? Have we taken in account that working a dog too hard as a pup, feeding it the wrong food, and injuring the pup can allow for callus' on the joints which will read as less than stellar?
In other words, I guess I hope Avalon isn't the only one getting the 20 questions all because she stumbled on this forum.
I do wonder why people choose not to health test when they're in this type of situation, is it a money thing? Is it fear that a dog may turn out not perfect? I will say, personally, I don't care if a dog is OFA or not, that is not to say I don't want health testing but I am open to other options. Also if a dog isn't perfect in the joints I want to know more about the dog and its mate, maybe there is something in that matching that makes the joints worth it. Basically, it's more complex than "Ex to Ex all the way, no exceptions" to me.
Does the Koolie have an (North) American breed club? Is this in the works?
I really do respect what Sara and Linds are starting, which I think many on the forum share in opinion, so anyone "against" these two has probably stumbled into the wrong bar. I have said time and again I would like a Traveler clone and Zinga and Didgie appear to be a great effort at it. In addition to being gorgeous dogs they seem to be wild and naughty but sweet dogs, I think that's an ideal pup in many ways. I also am impressed to see the intension for health testing and sporting goals. I would buy a Koolie from these girls.
I think this is a breed with great potential for "going viral" if you will so calm protection and honest education is essential. I would hope the breed, as a whole, can work together to create this ideal. I can see too much infighting truly damaging the chances of keeping a strong gene pool.
ETA, in my tradition I went and read the thread and some of this was covered so... continue on. I'm a parrot.
I have not seen any other welcome threads looking like this one...so yes I feel a bit "blind sided"...if having certification is a pre requisite for being on this forum, like i asked before, then please just say so....I have no problem leaving you all to yourselves...why i do not certify? because I am a small business owner running a full time working ranch in Northern Canada, I breed coolies to share this wonderful breed with people in north america, not make any "statement" or fill some kind of designer sport breed marketing spot, if i ever do desire to focus on making my dogs a business and seriously want to target the sport dog world then i will have to do 2 things, certify my dogs and raise my puppy prices...as for all the weird posts regarding ice cream and purple and snow??? really this is looking kinda childish ....just sayin
Nope, certification isn't a pre requisite of the forum but humor is and the icecream comments were teasing but not associated with interrogating you at all.
And please for the record, Avalon has NEVER produced a dog with any hip issues, Akilis breeder has!! And Akili has been retired from breeding since 2011 having never produced any issues other then 2 cases of skin allergies (prompted early retirement) Never heard of a coolie in Aus. either having or having produced any HD problems, and none are certified....Akilis breeder as of right now is the only known to me case of HD in coolies...and thank you for asking if these questions are being asked to Travs breeder by his puppy buyers or if it is just me because i walked "in to the wrong bar"....i hope Vandog thought the teasing was funny, cause i know i didnt....was more condescending and childish from my point of view, but again i am the one under fire here so definatly hard to switch the comic on
Understandable, whippet are not required nor expected to have hip clearances because the flaw simply does not exist in the breed. It would be like asking a breed without any cases of PRA to DNA screen for an occurrence or asking a breed, while the test may be nice it would be considered unneeded.
However, if it is showing prevalent in this breed than testing and certifying with one organization or another makes sense, for the betterment of the breed.
Look at the source, Shawn. Those "teasing" comments flew off my radar. I honestly didn't even notice until you pointed it out now. Not sure what else there is to contribute to the conversation here.
We've established that
a.) Shawn does not plan on health testing and does not health test now
b.) Shawn's dogs are from a variety of bloodlines, one of which has produced HD (that dog is no longer breeding)
c.) she is against double merle breeding
d.) she filters homes, which to some on here amounts to "trouble selling"
e.) she doesn't believe her dogs bark much, or at least to the amount portrayed here on this forum re: the two/three K/Coolies here
(this lead to an accusation that she is lying or misleading about barking)
At this point in time, ALL K/Coolies come from untested stock so I can't say that I see what this griping about lack of her health testing has to do with anything. I think she's made it clear she doesn't intend on health testing (although I really hope for the sake of the breed in North America, that changes soon).
Not really sure that this is a conductive place to be, Shawn. I left a while back for this same reason.
As a side note, it was more than possible for me to find my next breeder in Australia - it took much more research than I had anticipated but it can be done! No health testing, yet, but they don't condone killing puppies. So maybe that puppy will be added to the OFA pool and there ya go, three puppies with hip scores in the US.
Well I think the second sentence kind of answers the first. In a breed where health testing is not routine, the only way for it to become routine is if people who are breeding start doing it. Just like in a breed where merle-merle has been the norm, the only way for it to become not the norm is for people who are breeding to stop doing it.
Yes, it has happened before to first timers here and recently a long time and very active member of this forum got nailed for doing no testing along with others in the past. So your not being singled out.
This. It was humor, since apparently one of your friends decided to attack me for... joining in on the conversation. . They actually had nothing to do with you... but a person who has never had a coolie/koolie yet is the coolie/koolie police.
Threads get off track. Often.
I would like to point out that one of the problems with this type of thinking and one that currently all C/Koolie breeders seem to be guilty of. Yes, I have never up until recently heard about any dogs with HD in any C/Koolie. But, that's not saying much when people aren't getting them checked. A dog can work with bad hips, a dog can live their entire lives with bad hips and never show outward signs and it's very easy if a dog comes up lame years down the road for the breeder to say nothing.
People only started getting their dogs tested from that litter the HD showed up in (Which again I would like to reiterate is NOT from Avalon Coolies and is not any dog Shawn has produced but rather from a breeder she has dog(s) from) a dog under two years old and he had to have his hip replaced. Since then three from that litter I believe including him have come up displastic. But they only know that because the owners went to get them checked out of fear.
I hate that it took a dog having his hip replaced to make this come into focus. You can't say no dog in Oz has HD when no dogs are being tested. Honestly, I think these dogs behind the scenes, rough and tumble working ranch dog breeding style has fit well for them and probably has made for some very healthy dogs, hips and all. But we don't know that for sure.
I think it's great that you don't breed merle to merle Shawn. Absolutely wonderful! I'm also over the moon more and more breeders are embracing that philosophy. I think that's why I hold you to a higher (double) standard, though that's probably not right of me.
I also wanted to address this. I wish Richie health tested, I wish it so much. And if he came on here (which, honestly is just kinda a funny thought. 70 year old Rancher man on a dog forum with a bunch of women) I do think he would deserve exactly the same questions that Shawn is getting, if not more because he does have even more controversial breeding practices.
With Koolies you have to make sacrifices when looking for a breeder, I put trust and the right dog ahead of a lot of things and I don't regret it. But, that doesn't mean I don't have my eyes fully open. And no, I haven't grilled him because I just don't find it worth it. He's been breeding the same way for decades and I'm not going to tell him that he's doing it wrong.
Shawn, I'm also sorry you feel like you are under fire here, though I can see why you feel like that. But, you need to understand these questions were being asked privately and publicly before you came along. I've gotten questioned many times about the lack of health testing in Koolies along with my willingness to buy from a breeder who doesn't health test. So when a breeder such as yourself comes along that doesn't health test her dogs people are curious as to the reasoning behind it.
But, again I'm sorry you feel blindsided because I know from experience it never feels good when that happens.
Very nice! And then add Zip Tie, Didgie and Traveler!
This is so true. Most problems in breeds were at one time, unknown or not thought to be a problem. That's often how they become widespread unfortunately. The main issue in my breed is epilepsy, which unfortunately does not have a test yet (maybe someday). When I first got involved in the breed in the mid-90s there was still a lot of what now turned out to be ignorance and/or denial involving the problem in them, even though the breed club had already talked a lot about it and research to find a genetic marker had already begun. A lot of people felt their dogs were free from it, it was only an issue in the imports, it was a problem in the brown or black dogs but not the variety they had, etc, etc. And people weren't nearly as honest about it as they could have been. Now, we still don't have a marker but people at least acknowledge epilepsy as being the problem it is and more and more people in the US are being forthcoming with info.
With something like HD, the fact is a fit and active dog could certainly make it to old age being asymptomatic. And if an older dog starts showing signs of stiffness in the morning or evening, lameness during work, etc it is very easy to assume that the dog's age is catching up with him. I have known a number of pet dogs who weren't diagnosed with HD until they were over 9 years old. I suspect there's a lot more "old arthritic dogs" out there who are actually dysplastic. I also know dogs who's pre-breeding x-rays shocked every one by showing moderate or severe HD when the dog never had lameness issues, dogs who were very active performance dogs.
It's very possible that K/Coolies are a breed with a fairly risk for HD but no one will know that until there's a good database of x-rays submitted to OFA. Belgians have pretty a pretty low risk (32.7% submitted to OFA are rated excellent, 2.9% are rated as having some degree of HD) but breeders still routinely x-ray/submit because we want it to stay that way. I have known dogs who failed and so far I have never known a Belgian with symptomatic HD. Even the boy I knew who had his OFA come back as "moderate dysplasia with arthritic changes" at 2 years old shows no signs of having bad hips at all. Maybe their light, natural build allows them to compensate for the problem better than a lot of other dogs, I really don't know. I do know though that even in a low risk breed, some dogs seem normal but are dysplastic.
Health testing isn't about dogs being a business or marketing. It's more about people years from now being able to access health data on their dogs and relatives of their dogs to make more informed breeding choices. I think what a lot of people here question (and question in a respectful manner because they want to understand) is, why go through the trouble of x-raying then not submit the results? Will the $40 to submit the H/E x-rays that are already done really cause anyone to have to charge a bunch more for their puppies? Or some how turn them from a hobby to a commercial breeder? It seems the answer is that you aren't looking for your dogs to really contribute to the breed's population in North America beyond your own personal dogs. If that is the case then it seems a shame to have quality dogs of such a rare breed (in NA anyway) and not be interested in your dogs contributing to the gene pool here but it is what it is. But the main and best reason for health testing and submission of results is to establish and expand on an unbiased, public record of dogs that anyone researching dogs or lines can access for information. It isn't about if your dogs are a hobby or a business or about making a statement or following a trend or being PC.
Shawn, I again say that I hope you stay and participate in discussions on this forum. While people are asking you questions about your dogs and practices here, I suspect they'd still like to get to know you and your dogs through the forum. And most especially, I bet most would like to see more Coolie pictures. I think most people here only ever heard of Koolies through Linds getting Traveler (and now there's Didgie and Zing) but he certainly has won the breed many fans.
Thank you Lindsey!! That is all I wanted to hear :"richie does have more controversial breeding methods (breeding dogs on chains, not checking newborns for 3 days and much more.,...) and you would not dream of telling him how to breed".....all I ask is the same respect (if not more since my breeding practices are not even comparable to his poor choices)...and the fact that the only K/coolie exposure has been from his kennel is exactly why i am here...and sharing all of the facets coolie have to offer, not just what Toolalla Koolies have....so i do hope we can all look past my lack of certification (as you do for Travs breeder) on my dogs so we can enjoy more coolie pics and maybe learn about other coolies, their breeders, their activities (like ranch work, i only see agility and disc stuff on the forum), their differences in intensity, differences in looks, learn some real breed history, etc....
oooo and i dont know where you get your certification done in the US, but here we would spend about $440 to have Hips/elbows certified per dog.....
It costs $40 to send your already done rads to OFA for certification. More if you need to get rads done.
Eta, Richie gets our respect because he treats us with respect. You get the same treatment you have dealt us in the past. As far as the rest of chaz, they are free to draw their own conclusions.