Hello from Canada!!

Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by avaloncoolies, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Questions posed in a reasonable, thoughtful manner are not "attacks." And if one is confident in their practices, resorting to insults, disparaging personal attacks, and projections of motive in response to those questions shouldn't be necessary and don't really do much to address answering the questions. And kind of make one look bad. Just sayin'.
     
  2. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    There is always going to be fighting, sadly it seems unavoidable. But luckily while the vocal few might at the surface make things look bad if you dig a little deeper there is a tight network of people all doing what they do best, loving their dogs. And these dogs make it easy to do that.

    I don't think anyone no matter what side of the "line" they are on has anything but the breeds best interest at heart at the end of the day. Passion makes it hard to think straight sometimes and in a breed old yet new with things starting to change it's bound to get mess especially when you throw the internet ontop of it.

    But, I've mad some amazing friends, learned from people whether I liked them or not, had my views and opinions changed and tested and fell in love with a breed I will never be without. No matter what these dogs make it worth it even when I feel like crying because of that hate that can happen. Nothing, no matter what, is going to change how much I adore this breed.

    But, that doesn't mean I don't hope that someday people can try to put aside differences, past assumptions and work together.

    Shawn, you are going to breed as you are going to breed and I doubt anything said here will make you change your mind. I do hope maybe some of the health testing stories or points might stay with you (especially the ones made by Nina and adojrts) but if they don't then oh well. I don't think you're a bad breeder, just not someone I would choose to go to. But I think you breed fabulous dogs, I think you have a large number of happy puppy buyers and loyal ones to boot.

    I'm still not entirely sure why you hate me so much or what questions you think I avoid answering since I believe I'm pretty candid about most things. But, if you would ever like to bridge the gap between us I am more than open to that. I'm always here to answer direct questions that you have for me. I think a lot of what you think about Sara and I is based very much on misunderstandings and things not said or meant and I do think that some honest, straightforward conversation would do a world of good for everyone.

    But regardless if that happens or not I still wish you and your dogs well and hope you continue on breeding dogs that make people as happy as they do now.
     
  3. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Avalon... I don't know you or your dogs. I do think it's pretty neat you do so much with them. It's obvious you love the breed and have strong opinions about what should or shouldn't be done with them. I think that's pretty common among breeders of any breed :) I do wonder what your hopes are for Koolies...or I guess Coolies would be? Are you breeding basically just for yourself to have more dogs or do you hope to establish K/Coolies as a breed in North America?

    If you are just breeding for yourself then I suppose it doesn't matter what you do, as you don't have any big goals or plans for your dogs. And that is fine. I think that's the case with most actual working dogs - people breed them for themselves to get another generation of working dogs. If however, your hopes are to work towards establishing the breed in North America it seems that isn't something you can do on your own. And it seems best to try to work together with others in North America who have similar goals, even if you have differing opinions about the finer details. I really don't know what your main complaint is with Linds and Sara but it seems it's mostly personal? Having to do with who they bought their dogs from? Their age? That they want to be breeders? Didn't you say your dogs have that breeder's dogs in their pedigree? Aren't they all Koolies...or Coolies? Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? No matter how experienced you are in a breed, you had your first dog of that breed once and at a point, you decided you might like to pursue breeding. I think we all start off thinking about breeding and being some what naive about it, at least in some aspects. Certainly, I'd have made different choices early on if I knew then what I do know. But those who are serious about it stick with it, become well versed in the breed, breeding, health, reproduction and all things dog. They become the future of their breed.

    It's hard to establish a "new" breed in a country when there is so much drama and bad feelings from the get go. That does nothing but hurt the breed and turn people off of them. Don't kid yourself, it is not like this in all breeds. Sure you have personal differences, people might argue with each other but it seems you can't get more than a handful of K/Coolie people together on an internet forum or on FB without them pointing fingers at what the others are doing wrong...or possibly even thinking about doing wrong. Instead of spending so much time trying to blow the whistle on what fellow K/Coolie owners/breeders/would be breeders are doing or aren't doing or might do in the future, why not put aside the personal issues and work together constructively? Create a database for people to enter their dogs into with pedigrees, photos and all known health info (something like this: http://baza.belgi.pl/modules/animal/result.php?padaczka=1&search=1&st=0). Create an email list or forum or FB group for all K/Coolie people, everywhere that is moderated and does not tolerate fighting. Focus on talking about your dogs instead :) Create an environment that is open and welcoming to newbies, allows important information such as health, temperament and structure to be discussed freely and openly but without fighting. And start a parent club. I know the K/Coolie people don't want kennel club registration at this point but having a parent club is going to be important for other reasons. Check out non-kennel club related parents clubs like JRTCA and ASCA. Parent clubs are a non-biased (hopefully) source of info for newbies, set the guidelines for breeding and promote the breed in a responsible manner. Through a parent club, pedigrees can be kept, health info tracked and registration can be given for purposes of long term accurate records in the breed.

    Not that it's my place to tell K/Coolie people what to do, I'm not involved in the breed. It really is for the K/Coolie people in this country to decide what direction to take the breed. It just seems silly to spend so much time and energy on amongst yourselves when everyone can be working together for common goals. Worry about your differences after the breed is well established in the country, you have a registration system and a parent club in place. Maybe in the future everyone will get to a point where they are able to work together for the good of the breed, despite differences in opinion. If not, I just don't see this breed getting very far in North America.

    Avalon...I don't think anyone wants to see you banned but I do think most here, like myself hope that this umm...K/Coolie Drama isn't going to be a regular problem in any thread the breed is mentioned. Disagreement is one thing, personal attacks are another. On the same token, hopefully your lack of official health testing doesn't become a repeatedly hashed out issue. It seems you've said your peace about it and I doubt anyone on this forum will change your mind in terms of what you do. I do hope you joined this forum because you truly wanted to join in on the discussions here. It's a great forum and we discuss so much more than just the latest in K/Coolie Drama :) There's people here with all different breeds, pet owners, trainers, competitors, breeders, rescuers - it's just a great diverse and supportive group of dog people. I'm not sure I have seen you post anywhere but here and the meet up section so far but I certainly may have missed it. Hopefully you will join in and we'll get to know more about you and your dogs.
     
  4. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Breeding merle to merle is prominent in Aus. and only recently breeders have been introducing solids into their breeding program...funny enough richies first move in that direction was only a few years back and he chose Gunnahs dad Borahview Dipper for it...in the 7+ years since the split Koolie/Coolie breeders have been following different goals and not crossin lines and in my opinion has created a physical and temperement difference between the two breeds...(for ex:coolie=better off switch and not as loud(since yes my dogs do bark), lighter bone density, finer head...etc)...also a detail that some Koolie reg. with the Aus Koolie Club are from unknown lineage from pounds (kennel unrelated to linds, saras or ours) raising some red flags for me way back when i was looking into importing....
     
  5. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I joined because I thought a different point of view could be offered....I have lines in common with sara and linds...have nothing against the blood lines just the breeding practices from the kennel owner...(culling pups, dogs on chains, losing pups from lack of care, merle to merle breeding, not puppy testing etc...) not ok for me to not certify but sure no worries with all that other stuff going on down under....we can look the other way for that...
    As to hip dysplasia in my lines.....i no longer breed my lines from USA...for many different reasons, including the discovery of problems in lines related to her lines ... lots of other reasons that i will not discuss on here but having said that, her hips have been xrayed and have been cleared by my vet...
     
  6. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Breed history....sad to say you do know little....they were not imported from germany....
    In early 1878 approx...when Aus. was importing large flocks of sheep from Germany, England, France, and Spain...each flock came with a Shepherd and his dogs....some English sheep dogs from England (BC's, smooth collies, Smithfields) some German Tigers, German Shepherds etc...from Germany, some can speculate that Carea Leones from Spain were brought in \as well (merle breed from spain)....all of these flocks, shepherds and dogs came into Aus and began breeding (sheep, dogs, and humans of course lol)...Now a perticular breed started to stand out, mainly used by the German Settlers in Aus, whoi were breeding amongst each other...the German Coolie
     
  7. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    And then yes in 2005 some people sat around a table and wanted to change the name from German Coolie to Aus.Koolie...
    1.to reflect the aus.origin (some could argue to jump on the aussie breed fad train that started around that same time)
    2.to steer clear of the derogatory term Coolie with a c, used for imigrant workers (approp. name for imigrant breed dogs for the time, logical name for them to come up with)
     
  8. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    It only takes 5 generations to permanently change breed traits, caracteristics and temperements (approx. 5) so logically since the split there are now some obvious differences between them other then just the name
     
  9. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I will leave it at... there are other sides to the Coolie breed then what has been made available here on this perticular forum...hopefully we can all get over the drama so we can discover all the facets and not allow some people to blind everyone with my lack of certification on my dogs...if anything people can discover other wonderful breeders in |Aus. that have great breeding practices, still no certifications there either but wonderful breeders with great things to offer
     
  10. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    And thank you Vandog for pointing out the difference between "having trouble placing pups" and being careful as to where they are being placed...my pups are better off with me then in the wrong hands...i wont just put anyone on a plane to anyone just because they can paypal me money...how is that sa bad thing? how am i not to feel attacked when you say things like that? how can i feel like bridges are trying to be built?
     
  11. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I'm having a hard time understanding how Coolies and Koolies can be totally separate breeds with the same foundation, bred for the same purpose same temperament and recent shared pedigrees. What is the advantage of pursuing them as separate breeds? It seems there is just typical variation in looks and temperament that can be found in different lines of any breed. But maybe I'm missing something?

    FWIW Koolies on this forum have always been portrayed as having excellent off switches.

    I don't think anyone is asking you to agree with what the breeder of their dogs does but what he does has little to do with members of this forum. You seem to acknowledge there is merit in the line. I think the overall feeling on this forum about Koolies, from reading many, many discussions is that it is unfortunate that there isn't more health testing done in the breed. I know there's people on this forum who would probably be involved in the breed except that they won't buy dogs who aren't health tested. I have an agility friend who a Koolie would be perfect for but there is no way she will buy a puppy from dogs who don't have official health testing that she can look up.

    If you go back through old threads, you'll also find that most people here having varying degrees of disagreement and discomfort concerning merle x merle. Perhaps these issues have not come up more on this thread because they have already been covered over and over on Chaz. And people do not look the other way on it. But people here also tend to be pretty accepting of other posters. On some boards, you would have been flamed from here to next week for breeding without health testing or not certifying your breeding dogs. As would Linds and Sara for buying puppies from merle x merle breedings. But really, that is what makes Chaz such a great forum. People can disagree but all out flaming and relentless personal attacks don't tend to happen. People on here who strongly oppose merle x merle breedings can still think the Traveler, Didgie and Zing are awesome dogs. They can still like Linds and Sara, even if they would have made different choices themselves.

    As to the rest, I'm not saying it makes it fine or that I like it but I think there is a huge cultural difference between people posting on internet dog forums about their pet/sport dogs and an old rancher in Australia who values his dogs but who's dogs are and always have been first and foremost real working dogs. Sometimes when one wants a dog of a breed that is uncommon, one has to look at the bigger picture rather than get caught up on modern ideals. If most breeders aren't health testing (or some aren't and some are but can't provide proof), most breeders are working oriented and maybe don't have strong pet-type feelings about their dogs/puppies and merle to merle is extremely common what exactly is someone who's fallen in love with the breed supposed to do from the standpoint of modern breeding ideals? It seems to me, their options are pick the breeder who's dogs overall suit them the best and are most what they are looking for...or pick a different breed, maybe a breed which suits them less but in which modern ideals in terms of breeders are more established. It seems there are currently no breeders of Coolies or Koolies who are doing everything right in terms of modern thinking on what makes a breeder "ethical". Trying to decide who's breeding practices are worse than who's, even though everyone is admittedly not breeding to these modern ideals seems pointless. If people want the breed, they are going to have to be willing to let go of some of the modern ideals. I don't think it will always be that way but for now, it is what it is.

    Regarding you having trouble placing puppies or not...as long as you are properly caring for your puppies until they go to the right home, it's not really anyone's concern on an internet forum as to how long you have them. Which is why there was not much, if any discussion in that direction. That said, as someone involved in performance sports it seems the breed has great potential as sport dogs. I can't help but think you might be missing out on some great opportunities for your puppies to be stars (good for you as a breeder and good for the breed as a whole) by being opposed to doing official health testing. I'm sure you have your reasons and that you feel it works for you and your dogs. And that's fine. But I know I could have sent a great home to you, if only your dogs had clearances. Instead, that person opted to get another uncommon herding breed in which health testing is the norm. I think there's a lot of homes like that.
     
  12. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I respect people wanting certification, it is their choice and I have nothing against it...I would be more inclined to say that your friend would be missing out on a amazingly well bred coolie for sports by letting that stand in her way, the same way we all coolie owners right now would be missing out if we had let that stop us...I find the right homes for my coolies regardless, or the right homes for my coolies find them regardless, fabulous homes that have done great things with them and continue to make a name for coolies in general...all i am asking is if modern ideals of breeding practices need to be let go of for this breed from time to time when it comes to other things then certifications (like merle to merle breeding, like keeping dogs on chains with barrels, like culling pups etc...) I deserve the same...I health test my dogs but do not certify, i work my dogs, i spend a huge amount of time raising our pups the right way, i screen homes like no other, i puppy test and match pups to home, i have a non breeding contract that allows your dog to be intact...key word is NON breeding...but do not sell on breeding contracts since my one and only one was bred at 6 months, then again at 8 months old.
    Please dont throw me to the wolves because all i do not do is certify my dogs...i completly respect your choice to not want one of my dogs, but it certainly does not take away from our amazing dogs and what they are, what they can do, and how much i want to share them with everyone....my dogs not being certified does not make them any less wonderful then saras or lindseys dogs oarents and grandparents and shared greatgrandparents
     
  13. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I just... don't understand why you wouldn't go ahead and do health clearances.

    1. You seem to have a grasp of genetics and avoid merle to merle breeding presumably for health reasons. If you're concerned about the health of merle to merle, why not look into the other aspects of health. Yes you can get your vet to look at the dogs but why not have an official record kept? It would be a GREAT resource for the breed to have.

    2. I don't buy the 'if it works, it must be sound' theory. I know of too many cases where health issues haven't prevented a dog from working. As a lesser example, my younger dog has luxating patellas. She's not ever had an issue or shown she's unsound yet. I am sure there are many dogs working and performing through such issues. I am sure people breed these dogs not knowing there is an issue.

    3. Most sports people aren't going to buy dogs without health clearances. I am sure some will but most won't. For my next dog, it is possibly the most important thing since I've gotten more involved in sports. I've experienced having a dog with a great sound mind suited to a sport but having a structural issue. I don't want it again. You're missing out on some really great homes by not testing.

    Health testing isn't everything. It's just a tool to use and see what we've really got going on in a breed. The way I see it the more tools we utilize, the better the chance we have to breed good, sound dogs.

    So why are you opposed to doing this? It is an honest question because I just don't understand the reasoning.

    I looked into koolies once about 5 years ago. It took me one post on here long before any koolies were on the forum before I started getting messages alluding to just some of the drama I've heard since. It's a mess.

    I honestly love the sound of the breed. They seem very much up my alley (and I have a HIGH tolerance for vocal dogs having had Mia and three shelties). There's a lot about them that I like...they intrigue me immensely and seem like they might be a better fit than other herding breeds for me.... but there is too much about the breeders that I don't like. I hope that changes in the future.

    I'm just trying to explain that there are a lot of people that will be turned away by the state of things right now.

    My breed is very bad with health clearances too. But every dog tested is a small step in the right direction. It will take people willing to change the way things are done to make any kind of positive change for the breed.
     
  14. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    *Reads Quote*
    *Reads Your Reply*
    *Reads Quote*

    *Scratches Head*

    Um... what? Where did I..... what? What? I... what? Where did I even say that. :rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

    I hate your favourite kind of ice cream. Since apparently we just started saying random crap to quotes now.
     
  15. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I agree, shoes are definitely stupid.



    (I'm glad I wasn't the only one thoroughly confused.)
     
  16. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Absolutely.

    And tea with milk sounds terrible. But what do I know.
     
  17. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Maybe it's snow that fell before? That's silly. It's not like snow is part of a water cycle, where it melts, evaporates, and falls again. Duh.
     
  18. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    Easy. Put your finger on it and push up.
     
  19. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Well, you can also pack a prolapse in sugar.
     
  20. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    But peaches are fuzzy.
     

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