Hello from Canada!!

Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by avaloncoolies, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Health testing has nothing to do with breed standards, registrations or lack off, breed clubs or whether a dog/breed is in a kennel club or not. This is the 21st century and responsible breeders regardless of whether they have working dogs or show dogs, if they are truely breeding to better their dogs, then they should be doing all the testing that they can. It isn't about money, it isn't about titles and ribbons, it is about doing right by your breed or dog first and foremost and 2nd to the people that trust you enough to purchase.
     
  2. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I contacted you in hopes of eventually using one of your dogs as a stud, learned about your lack of health testing and titles on your dogs and moved on. Never wanted a puppy.
     
  3. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Nice post Linds, I still can't get over her assumption that we were planning to breed merle to merle without even asking.
     
  4. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    alright here is my theory...and i am on my way out for New Years Eve right now, so I will see if i am banned in the New Year...
    I think we can say we know i do not certify...ok..sorry but i dont, you can be ok with that or not, i mean sara and lindsey were ok with it to bring their k/coolies of choice....so i think this is a distraction from some of the other questions out there...how loud are they? what kennels do your coolies come from? are solids rare in australia? why the differences in coat? why the differences in name (and it is more then just "breeder preference")
     
  5. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    just some of the questions forgotten here...and maybe Sara and Lindsey dont like those questions....
     
  6. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Zinga is loud, we have been working on teaching her a quiet cue and also to show her frustration in other ways. She has a natural tendency to bark when frustrated, playing, excited and in other stimulating situations. She does not really alert bark. I do not like barking and have worked hard on limiting it as much as I can.

    Zinga is from Toolalla Koolies, bred by Richie out of Holly and Loco. Yes, a very closely linebred litter which was bred merle to merle. I trust Richie with his 40+ years of experience and felt the pros of his dogs outweighed what I feel to be cons in his breeding program. I talked to many people with his dogs that excel in the sports I am currently training Zinga in.

    Solids are not rare, however, breeding merle to merle is quite prominent. For a long time in the breeds history, solids were culled or labeled as kelpies instead of believed to be koolies. This however is not the case now.

    I don't know why the difference in coat, I do know that breeders of koolies along with other herding breeds tend to breed for working ability above anything else, rarely focusing on looks. So I can imagine it was a breeder preference. I know I prefer the short coat koolies.

    The differences in the name is because the breed is thought to have originated in German and then was imported into Australia. In the early writings found about this breed, they are labeled as German Coolies, most likely from a weird pronunciation of collie. Because the Australian Koolie Club felt that the breed developed more in their country and to give it an identity to reflect that they decided to opt for the other name, Australian Koolies. According to the majority of breeders in Australia, regardless of club affiliation, there is no difference in German Coolies and Australian Koolies.

    Have I proved myself worthy of owning this breed now? I am new to this breed, I plan on learning and absorbing everything I can from a large variety of people involved before I ever plan on breeding. So I'm not really sure what you are trying to prove.

    Can you please answer the questions the other forums members have asked? Specifically about the hip dysplasia in your dogs?

    ETA: I better add something about Zip before you assume the worst. Zip Tie is coming from Kylie, he is bred from Toolalla Skandal and Lanes Creek Shake N'Shiva. Yes, Skandal shares a similar parent with Zinga, however, calculated out the inbreeding coeffecient will be 7%, which I feel is an ok number. I also feel that I will limit the chance of any hereditary health issues by properly screening for those that I can. I will not breed if either dog develops any health or behavioral problems. I will not breed if I don't have a reason too, or if I don't think the puppies would be an asset to the future generations. As far as if Zip barks? I heard he's already pretty darn vocal. :D
     
  7. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Well, lets start at the beginning. You accused Sara and Linds of attacking you, that is actually laughable. Of all the flaming and attacks that happen on this forum, I don't recall either of them being involved. Not their style.
    Others in the this thread have made statements or asked questions, which you seem to ignore while you focus on Sara and Linds.
    Now I am not a Koolie owner and for months there has been many discussions about Koolies on this forum. Sara and Linds were very forthcoming in the fact that no it is sadly not common for breeders of these dogs to do health testing. But they have also made it very clear that it had to start somewhere and that their attempts to find breeders that tested had failed. So the next best thing was to get the dogs they desired, test them, compete with them and prove them and then MAYBE breed them. And even I whom just scims over threads, understood that they were both against merle to merle breedings because that topic has been talked about in great depth concerning other breeds.
    So I don't know why the need is there to be so focused on as you put it ' these very young girls'. That would imply that they are too young or somehow adolescent. They are however educated and keen and I suspect that they are going to do wonderful things with their dogs (they already have for that matter) and they will do right by the breed. And in the future, if I were to want a Koolie or need to recommend a breeder? I know that both these young ladies would be at the top of the list.
    So, instead of attacking and making veiled comments about them, how about addressing others that asked questions?
     
  8. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    I looked seriously at C/Koolies for awhile but while the lack of titling/health testing bummed me out, it wasn't the reason I didn't get one. The reason I went Kelpie (out of un health tested parents), was because once I started looking around, the arguing and bashing in the Koolie world discouraged me from my desire to be a part if it. The conformation Lab world is much the same and the reason I turned to other breeds (luckily it turns out since herders suit me SO much better!), I did not want to get sucked into those hurt feelings and that heartache again. I would still like to own one someday, but for now, Limit is Koolie enough for me.

    I also want to state that when I approached Linds for more breeder info, Avalon was on the list to check out. It was not thru anything that her or Sara said that turned me off of the breed at all.
     
  9. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    Oops one other random thing, I also refuse to sign force neuter contracts. So far, even breeders that normally enforce them have expressed understanding and will cut the limited to full registration for me. Without a CLOSE relationship, I do not share my dogs' registration with anyone. Hence, once I buy them, I expect to be able to do what I want with them. Other things that sent me from the breed.

    The loudness was not one. With 6 herding breeds in the house, barking is expected lol
     
  10. vandog

    vandog Merlie Girlie!

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    I don't know what you want me to say... these dogs barked a few times while playing Chuck It but they certainly knew what "Quiet" met.
    Barking when excited is... to be expected I would think. Especially with a puppy/young dog of any bred. But these dogs seemed to understand (C/Kollie) that quiet met quiet. Hence my above comment. :D
     
  11. vandog

    vandog Merlie Girlie!

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    Generally, I like to pretend that you and your co-hort aren't on my radar, because I don't like to imagine the fact that Richie had to kill at least two puppies from your dogs own litters so that you could get what you could want. I think I'd done a good job finding my next potential K/Coolie breeder in Australia - he is really nice, does not do merle to merle anymore, and has proven dogs.

    I don't think what happened with Chessie is considered "trouble selling" but alas, we all have our own definitions of that. I will get crabby by your "trouble selling" bit though, and here is why:
    - Shawn does not place puppies by color/looks
    - Shawn does not place puppies before temperament can be evaluated
    All of these things contribute to puppies sometime being unsold right at eight weeks (and I know many breeders of many breeds who have been in this boat). I talked to three different Avalon owners personally who purchased puppies over the span of several years and they all said they got what they wanted... when I pressed, I got the same response. Color should absolutely be a factor in a decision, yes, but Shawn's screening process prevents temperament mismatches which is much more serious than a puppy of the wrong color :)
     
  12. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    My boxer does not bark when excited. He rarely barks, ever.

    My collie is an entirely different story. Collies are also barky dogs for the most part - again, you will find quiet collies, and some lines may tend to be barkier than others, but as a whole collies bark. You can train it out to a degree - he doesn't bark when he's working, and he doesn't often bark just to hear himself bark, but he is more apt to bark when he's out chasing birds/squirrels, playing, excited, etc. To me, a dog that barks when they get excited is somewhere on the "barky scale" (yeah, I just now made that up lol) because there are dogs that really just...don't bark. That doesn't mean they're a bad dog. Some people like dogs that bark a lot, even. I don't care much for barky dogs, but I do like collies and will probably always have one. I will probably have a koolie some day as well. I like herding dogs. Herding dogs tend to bark. I can deal with it even if I'm not a fan of barking.
     
  13. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    I'm just popping in to say, my herding breed mutt barks. A Lot. Enough that we no longer notice when other loud things are happening... ie the house next door is burning down and there are many sirens.

    It's not from lack of trying. LOL
     
  14. NinaB

    NinaB New Member

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    I have found these two young girls with a mere three Australian Koolies between them to be quite well informed, responsible, intelligent, courteous, and respectful. More than I can say for some, Shawn.

    I lost respect for you very early on in my Coolie experience which began a mere 18 months ago when I aquired my Coolie pup. My breeder informed us, her facebook followers, that she would no longer be breeding Coolies. Of course I was devastated because I was already so in love with the breed and knew I'd want another at some point. We were told that you would be the go to breeder in North America. It was for that reason I joined your facebook group and was immediately faced with a page full of your ranting about contracts and threats of neutering pups before they are shipped to their new homes and on it went. Totally unprofessional and unreasonable and I knew right then and there that I'd never look to you for a Coolie puppy. Had I not been instantly turned off by your unprofessionalism I certainly would have laughed at your contract and things would have ended before they began.

    My breeder did not do testing either which wasn't a big deal to me at the time. I had no intention to breed. I was looking for a working dog..unspoiled by breeding to show standards. I wanted a dog who would excel in search and rescue, and agility and fit in with my active life style which focused on my dogs. I was lucky. My Coolie is amazing and healthy. Three of her siblings and their active families however were not so lucky. Two of those puppies were purchased (and marketed) as prospective agility competitors. Unfortunately, that breeder...my pup's breeder, does not acknowledge this as a problem and blames the owners of her puppies for causing the pups to have hip dysplasia. This is the breeder from which you obtained one of your lines Shawn. Now, the difference between you and these two young girls (Lindsey and Sara) who intend to breed, is that they are willing to start off on the right foot and do the testing and documenting that needs to start with someone. After going through what I've gone through for the last several months...basically living in fear that my pup would also be afflicted...I, for one, will wait for my next Koolie puppy. While I understand that testing does not eliminate all health issues and that early on in the documentation process there may be unforeseen health issues that show up, I fully respect Lindsey and Sara for taking this important step and standing up to breeders like you who choose to breed blindly. I suppose, being one of only three breeders (known to me at least) in North America you can get by with that attitude. I'm thinking that will change before long.
     
  15. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    Yep. I already have the breeds I will have for the rest of my life and there's certainly some nastiness in every breed, but the bashing from all sides of the K/Coolie breed is ridiculous for such a new breed!
     
  16. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    You are right, it is ridiculous. I had hoped to be able to work together with the current breeders in North America. However was met with hostility before my koolie even touched the ground. I try to be honest and respectful to everyone ne when someone comes to me for information about this breed. And yes, that does mean I have recommended Avalon to some people and other breeders to other people. The people that come to me seem to share the same feeling for health testing so it's frustrating not being able to point them in a good direction.
     
  17. vandog

    vandog Merlie Girlie!

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    Right. Apparently quiet herding dogs are a novelty and all of the ones I've met are just strange :D Especially my own two, which live in a apartment.

    As for the breed fighting, yes it's bad, but that behavior exists in all breeds. It is much more apparent in some breeds than others. Do I agree that health testing needs to become a priority? Absolutely! But the ethics that occur in other decisions regarding this breed that are just as bad, if not worse.
     
  18. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    This is stupid.... You're all on the same side and quibbling over a load of rubbish.

    Why does this happen is some breeds? It's so ridiculous to read. You should all meet up and walk the dogs together and you might all realise you're all pretty much the same and want the same things.

    Stupid.
     
  19. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Again, agreed. This is a breed with such a small population where we are, nothing can be gained from squabbling, it will and already has actually hurt the breed. Look at all of the fantastic owners that are turned away again and again from this?

    I'm done fighting, Shawn, health test or don't. I really don't care but please stop bashing Linds and I for crimes we haven't or have no intentions of committing. You don't like to be picked apart and neither do we. This is the last I will say on the subject, you can pm me if you would like to set aside our differences.
     
  20. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I've seen this in a breed over here. You know what happened? The WHOLE thing fell apart. Literally at the seams. There was no breed, because everyone divided into camps, and it was a joke.
     

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