Hello from Canada!!

Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by avaloncoolies, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Our Coolies are NOT LOUD!!! They can turn the drive on when appropriete but no annoying constent, unjustified barking, and no innapropriete "working"...herding breeds if left without a outlet for their herding instincts can unfortunatly turn into "dog workers"...where one dog becomes the sheep and another one will stand behind barking frantically at the first to move!!...I think it comes to breeding choices and lines NOT BREED!! You can find loud shelties but you can also find not so loud shelties....same with Coolies....IMO that would simply come from different breeding choices and line crossings...I think some people think a barky dog is a drivy dog, I disagree...one does not imply the other...our coolies are very drivy, but not loud!! As for Health testing, I have my breeding dogs xray'd and health approved by my vet but I do not send in to certify with any of the American assoc. Some people mind and some people dont...our lines can go back in time with no problems of displasia, or sight and hearing issues...all lived well into their teens all while working aus.ranches...for me and all of those that have chosen a avalon coolie that is enough and for others it is not...there is more to breeding then health testing ... anyone can pick 2 dogs, keep them intact, health cert them and put them together for pups....but can they pick the right combination of dogs, keep them intact and balanced, stimulate their minds and bodies to be the best they can be for the breed, put them together at the right age and for the right reasons (not because "there is a market for the breed"), raise the pups from 0 to 9 weeks with the best techniques to promote bidability, brains & braun and drive of course....?? I think health testing is important, hence why my vet is involved with every desicion i make when choosing a breeding pair, but I do not beleive I would "get more" out of sending those xrays down to the states somewhere for certification...like i said earlier this is my opinion only...I will see if i can post some pics of my dogs where you can see more structure....
     
  2. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Haven't any idea on the noise thing, or what even counts as loud or not loud, but out of curiosity, why you don't send in the X-rays for the panel eval and recording when you've already done the expensive part of getting the X-rays themselves? I'm mostly just involved in Flatcoats but one of the nice things about FCRs is that you can go back generations and see hip scores (and often CERF and elbows and patellas) of parents, siblings, offspring from other litters, etc. If something unexpected happens to a breeder (heaven forbid!) the information is all recorded and in the open for anyone to see so it's not lost.

    Of course that sort of thing is not the only reason to breed two dogs/lines. Far from it! But it's one piece that is easy to make public. When I chose my pup, working ability, structure, conformation, temperament, etc. all came in to play and I don't think anyone here who's gotten a puppy from a breeder is any different, though their specific desired traits certainly vary.

    I'm just curious as to why? Or rather, why not?
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Didn't Sara say she's the only one with prelims on a koolie?

    I wonder if its anything like in game pit bulls? People swear that because their dogs can work there is no reason to health test? Also OFA can be faulty and subjective so some prefer reading X-rays themselves.

    Either way it'll be nice to see the breed as a whole mature.

    I'm curious why the Koolies already on the forum look so different and why? Is it climate associated or use associated? Is there an intention to standardize a look and will there always be a split between the c/Koolies?
     
  4. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Just a couple things I want to point out about your comments Shawn.

    I have never heard of someone viewing barking as a meter for drive. Barking implies that the dog is barky, not drivey. I know very drivey dogs that are silent and I know very drivey dogs that are barking. In my opinion, those people need to really learn about working with and around drivey dogs before simplifying it so extremely.

    Also, any herding dog can zero in on motion. It is not a trait of bad breeding or bad training, it's just a problem that comes along with owning herding breeds. I have worked hard from the beginning to ensure that Zinga is able to focus while other dogs are in motion and it has not been an easy task. I know some very well bred, agility champion BC's with the same problem. Actually, if you go to any agility trial you are pretty much guaranteed to see dogs staring into the rings as other dogs are running. Doesn't mean they are poorly bred or trained.

    As far as koolies being barky in general, this question has been brought up recently on a couple of the c/koolie groups, both local and international. The general consensus was that yes, c/koolies are loud. Not certain lines, not badly bred koolies, but the breed as a whole. I'm happy that your dogs aren't what you deem as "loud", however I know several people with personal experience of your dogs that have said otherwise. Loud is a relative term, however to imply that your dogs don't bark is misleading. We know you have had trouble selling the last two puppies of your litter, I find it very odd that this has corresponded with you joining multiple groups recently and I hope you are not giving false information to try to place your dogs. I would hate for someone who really doesn't like barking to end up with a dog that has a tendency to bark.

    I know I tend to make a big deal out of the negative aspects of koolies. They bark, they are high energy, they are crazy. I do that for a reason. How many people have said they want a koolie after viewing photographs online? How many people have changed that opinion once they view videos or meet one in person? Not just of mine or Linds' dog, but of koolies of different lines and owned by different people. It isn't fair to portray only the good things of a breed especially with a breed that is so difficult to come across.

    As far as the health testing goes, I think your answers speak for themselves. I find it very sad that you do not see the value in a certification program for hips/elbows especially when there have been an alarming number of recent cases of hip dysplasia in dogs sharing your own lines. It isn't right to say that hip dysplasia hasn't ever appeared if you haven't looked for it. I know plenty of dogs that have worked for years with dysplastic hips and never showed symptoms, luckily their owners didn't go on to produce more puppies with poor hips.

    You are right, there is so much more to breeding than doing health testing and sticking two parents together. I hope one day I am a fantastic breeder, one that nobody would have to question on my motives or intentions.
     
  5. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I agree Adrianne. It's the "because they can work they are fine" mentality.

    C/koolies in general have a huge variety in looks, there is no current standard. It's also not a divide between spellings, there are people with short haired, prick eared coolies that spell it with a 'c' as well.
     
  6. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    If no one, literally, health tests and yet you're seeing hip issues it must be a scary breed to find a breeder in...

    Are the films public or private?
     
  7. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    It is pretty scary. Hence why I went with a breeder who works 300+ sheep a day and who's dogs I know have succeeded to the level I want to in sports like disc and agility and have talked to those owners. I wish I could've gotten a dog from health tested parents, but that's just not the case.

    ETA: arg, zinga's results aren't up on the OFA website yet....
     
  8. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    You know, it is the same story over and over again as to why breeders don't test. And don't kid yourself, your vet CAN'T advise you. If a regular vet could, then the rest of us would be fools for spending as much and travelling so much to get the proper health clearances.
    I remember many many years ao being at a dinner with the judge brought over for our Nationals, he was a hardcore working dog breeder, judge and highly respected. He commented that he was so surprised at the health and eye issues we had over here, because they (the U.K) didn't. Of course they also didn't test back in those days over the pond and it was just becoming common to do health clearances here. So we were discovering the problems through testing and they foolishly thought it was just a N.A thing lol and their dogs were 'fine'. Also interesting was the number of imported dogs, of course coming from non tested dogs and very interesting how a lot of the known problems were traced back to certain non tested over the pond working dogs. Also interesting was how breeders stopped importing those non tested dogs, stopped breeding to outside lines that didn't test, wouldn't accept your bitch unless she was tested and clear. Or purchasing that lovely well bred working prospect from the non testing breeder..........not worth the risk when there are just as many well bred, excellent working bred pups available from those breeders that do test.
    So your breed, is where mine was about 15 yrs ago, and you can either be in the fore front of producing well bred working and tested dogs.........or not and be left scrambling to catch up like those die hard breeders that refused to test or didn't believe in it in my breed. Interestingly, those breeders either got out of the breed or ended up being forced too, to keep up with their peers.

    Oh and ever hear of OVC?? you don't have to send to OFA.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2012
  9. NinaB

    NinaB New Member

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    I don't know Shawn. If no one tests and documents results who is to know what you are breeding? Are you aware that one of your lines is having a rash of severe dysplasia right now?? According to the breeder, both parents of one litter x-rayed okay according to her vet, yet they produced 3 known severly dysplastic pups. I have no informatioin on the remaining pups from that litter. Another litter from different parents produced at least one afflicted pup around the same time. Now wouldn't a responsible breeder want to know the history of health issues for not only the parents of a dog they were breeding, but also the grand parents, siblings, and so on? I mean, isn't that why OFA guidelines were put into place? To rid breeds of HD?


    As far as the barking...I know several coolies/koolies and their people and all have very active lives, mentally and physically. The kind of activities most prospective c/koolie owners would do ie agility, disc dog, SAR, flyball, obedience...most times a combination of these activities and more... which is true of the c/koolies I know. Now, none of these dogs I know do herding...so are you implying that if we have these dogs and want to keep them happy, we should be working them in herding?? Are you implying that we don't know what we are doing with their training? or that only your lines are quiet??
     
  10. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    I think that when one gets a herding breed that they should definitely expect barking. And Koolies (or Coolies, however you want to spell it) are no exception. Like someone else said as well, according to recent questions asked on FB groups, most people seem to have noisy C/Koolies. I think I even asked on one of the groups months ago now and the answer I got was that most peoples' dogs were noisy.

    Since Shelties were brought up... I've met Shelties that bark a lot and Shelties that bark a little. But the point being: they ALL bark. Some just more than others. And it has nothing to do with training. It's instinct. You can manage it, yes, but you can't eliminate it. Herding breeds like their voice, and using it comes naturally to them. You can't train it out of them and you can't exercise their voice away. You can teach them a quiet command, but that doesn't mean they're going to be silent forever. Chances are if you've taught a quiet command, it's because you intend to use it.

    Of course dogs who are lacking exercise and are frustrated will bark more, but I think that is definitely not the case with any of the C/Koolie people I've ever talked to. Most dogs of this breed (whose owners are active in the online world) get a lot of physical and mental stimulation and are likely not bored very often.

    I currently have three quiet dogs. They've always been quiet. Dance is an alert barker, but not to an extreme, and other than that and her talking (which is adorable and something I encourage), she's not noisy. Not even as a puppy, nor were the Dobermans. Now I have an Aussie puppy and what does she do when she gets frustrated? Excited? Happy? Bossy? She barks. It's what comes naturally to her. That doesn't mean I'm going to allow her to bark at everything all the time, but at the same time I know that this is part of who she is and something that will likely never leave. As long as I can control her barking to some extent, I'll be happy. My other dogs were never really trained not to bark because it wasn't necessary. With her it will be and already we're working on teaching her to quiet down when told. My Border Collie mix prior to these four dogs was much like Journey as far as barking. She was never a nuisance barker, but she definitely barked and liked to bark. My friend's late Shelties were the same and their owner hates barking and is an excellent trainer. Using their voice really does come naturally to a herding dog, no matter their breed or their lines.

    Having met and enjoyed meeting Shawn and two Avalon dogs, I can say from experience that one was pretty dead silent and the other was a lot more noisy. The noisy one was young (not quite a year old - not sure if that matters), and would be quiet when asked, but he definitely barked a lot. Not any more than any other herding breed dog I've been around, but he definitely was not silent. There were a couple of times there where I don't think Shawn or I heard what we were saying haha. They both were lovely dogs and I can't say a bad thing about either of them, but there's no denying that the one dog liked using his voice. Maybe not to an extreme, but barking was being done.

    I also see a lot of herding breed dogs who fixate on the movement of other dogs. I don't think that's a lack of training either, although I do think if one expects it as a possibility as soon as they get the dog, one can manage it hopefully so that the behaviour is not reinforced or encouraged. But even so, some dogs will still want to chase and bark and stare at other dogs. I see it all the time with dogs with experienced owners/trainers and without. It was one of the biggest reasons I was a little afraid to get a herding breed (be it a C/Koolie, a Border Collie, and Aussie, whatever... and poor Sara had to hear all about it. Thanks Sara for putting up with my worries and for being so helpful!) because the other breeds I have aren't generally prone to such a behaviour. I was terrified I'd end up with a dog who obsessed over the movement of other dogs.

    Training can only do so much. A lot of it is instinct. And a lot of it has to do with what an owner tolerates as well, particularly when it comes to barking. I have a medium tolerance for barking, but some people have zero and some have a super high tolerance. So if barking isn't something that bothers a person, of course their dogs might bark more than a dog who lives with an owner who hates barking. But even the latter dog will probably still bark. And as far as the motion obsession, I don't think all the training in the world could totally eliminate this behaviour in some dogs no matter how hard their owner might try. They might improve over time and can definitely be managed, but some dogs will always want to 'herd' other dogs/people/bicycles/etc. if given half a chance.

    As for the health testing, I think it's good that the dogs are x-rayed, but if a breeder has gone that far, I genuinely don't understand not sending them into OFA or OVC. If for nothing else than to have documented health clearances for the breed later on down the road. It just seems so important to the future of the breed and for the benefit of breeders now and down the road. You do everything else so thoroughly as far as breeding nice tempered dogs who can do whatever is asked of them and matching puppies to their people well... why not take the health testing a step further? It's going to happen eventually in the breed anyway at some point (I hope anyway), so why not be one of the first? Owning a breed with one severe health problem that cannot be tested for, I really don't understand why people wouldn't at least test for everything they actually can test for. I understand the cost, but I think it's one of the luxuries of breeding dogs nowadays. There are tools and advancements out there now that were not around a long time ago and they've definitely helped improve the health of a lot of breeds in many ways. Also, quick question to anyone with the breed: with Coolies being a herding breed, why don't breeders CERF their dogs? A lot of other herding breeds have known eye issues. It's not just hip and elbow dysplasia people should be worried about I wouldn't think.

    Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble! But having come thisclose to getting a C/Koolie, and as someone who still wants one someday and has spoken to owners of dogs from a few different lines/breeders and met a couple of Coolies, I felt I should say something. :)
     
  11. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Nice post Toller.

    Quick response to your CERF question, I plan on CERFing Zinga and Zip. My thought was to do everything that a typical herding breed would have done, so hips, elbows, CERF and probably throw cardiac in there as well.
     
  12. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    **** Sara is dropping truth bombs.

    Especially the parts on the importance of health testing and BEING HONEST about your breed of choice.

    It isn't all sunshine and rainbows in any breed and portraying it as such is when fads are created and dogs end up in homes that they are NOT well suited for.
    This is especially dangerous for a breed as pretty as the koolie and one that does as well in training and is starting to have such prominence in the "dog world".. being the next IT breed because people think that owning one is happy sunshine rainbows and perfect drive is not a good thing IMO
     
  13. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I think a more in depth introduction is obviously needed from the direction this thread is going...lol...so I made a tea and got myself some cookies and will try this again :D

    I am Shawn Murray from Prince George BC Canada, about 800km (500miles) North of Vancouver. We have 6 month winters with -30c (-22F) being a usual day around here...my husband and I moved here in 2007 and had a dream of running a small farm with some livestock and a dog business. We found our 127 acres Ranch and starting Avalon Ranch Dog Adventure Camp, doggy daycare, social setting dog boarding, and dog training…in our short 5 years of owning and running Avalon Ranch we have built a solid reputation in our dog business all while working hard fixing up a 60 year old farm, showing and breeding miniature horse and in 2010 we added tending to our small flock of sheep to the “to do” list after falling in love with herding…we spend a lot of time invested in what we do. Part of this picture perfect dream for us was finding the “right” breed to help on the Ranch, be a Ambassador for my training, AND a great family pet! As noticed by many today BC’s, Kelpies, ACD’s, Shepherds, etc…can do one, maybe two of the above but rarely as a whole could any do all three…we didn’t want outdoor kennels for our herding dogs, or a mix of different breeds for the different roles (ie: bc for herding, jack russel for training, and mmm golden for family pet) we wanted one breed fits all…we spent a lot of time looking into every option, even some fancy sport mixs but found everything we were looking for in the German Coolie.
    My dogs are dogs, they bark (as to how much they bark is up to the handler so yes it is a training thing, not the breed or the dog), they lick, they roll in horse and sheep poop, they jump on me (I don’t mind it), they sleep on the couch, they run (fast might I add), they like dirt, they have never met a stranger, they are smart (too much for my own good sometimes), they are talented at anything you ask them to do, they will work until their feet fall off before ever quitting on you, they love to curl up and watch multiple movies on a Sunday afternoon, they love my cats and can be at an outdoor kids waterpark enjoying the water and company without scaring crowds away with being loud, they help rehabilitate aggressive dogs and can work my 1000ft long fenceless summer pasture for the sheep without supervision (no fence, sheep graze, dog covers perimeter when sheep get too close), they play with our clients dogs at daycare like any other pup, all are healthy and our vet visits, other then yearly check ups and pre breedings have been for normal dog stuff (some stiches, branch stuck, riley nearly died from eating coyote bait) We chose this breed and then further chose these particular dogs for all of the above. Sharing all of the above is why we breed them…
    We choose to follow the lead set by Australia, they created this amazing breed, kept them healthy and unique both in temperament and in working style but also in looks over the last 115 years, I really don’t think they need some North Americans coming in there and ¨sounding the alarm¨ for a rescue of their breeds health and soundness (other then merle to merle breeding) and to set “breed standards”. This breed is not recognized by any major Kennel Club, Australian or otherwise and are not certified by OFA in Aus. ..(please feel free to come down on the Aus. Kennels the same way you did me anytime….anybody?! No?! ) They should absolutely not be bred merle to merle and Solid Coolies are not rare in Australia nor are they `throw backs`. They are used for sheep and cattle mainly but have recently been making a stamp in the dog sports world…in Australia…Overseas it is the opposite, few are used on sheep and cattle and most are involved in the dog sport world.
    My lines are Yatahae (usa), Coolibah (aus) and Borahview (aus). Our breeding decisions are solely based on the best for the breed and the future owners. We have never had trouble placing, why would have pups at 15 weeks is simply because the right `fit` has not come along and we are not out for a quick buck…we sell our pups for $550 mostly as a statement against lucrative breeding as we therefor make literally NO money from our litters after all our expenses and call of duty, like driving 2200km (1400miles) round trip for a hand delivery. We have only been breeding from our Aus. Lines since 2011 for several reasons but the one being Akili is past the age…In our Aus.lines we have a nice background of Toolalla, Sunnyview and Mumbil breedings that I think make the perfect balance of health, drive, work, personality and off switch…obviously this is MY preference but it has been what allows me to do so much with my dogs with no conflicts…making them **** near PERFECT in my eyes…I rarely have anything to complain about when it comes to my dogs. If I did then I would not feel like they were a good fit for me and what I was looking for…so I stand behind my dogs 100% and have only had incredible success with how happy our Avalon Coolie owners are!!
    In short, we are a small working ranch with working breeding pairs of an incredible Australian working breed with excellent records in producing top of the line performance dogs (agility, flyball, rally-o, dock diving, disc and SAR) with no health issues and a incredible ability of matching pups to home ensuring no poor combinations or `trending` we have a incredible scrupulous screening that actually Sara and Lindsey could not meet being unable to sign our `non breeding` close in our contract (maybe explaining this poor welcome from sara). We health test but do not certify, we do not support recognition by AKC CKC, they are German Coolies not AUs.Koolies and yes there is a difference. I only ask that my choices be respected as any others unless you have proof my choices are questionable…
    … whats good enough for your breeder Sara should be good enough for me! I find your attack insulting and uncalled for….do you welcome everyone to the forum this way? Malt is the pup in question referred to by Toller and yes he is young…and referring back to his age I will say it again it is a training thing not a breed thing…it is up to the handler to decide how much is acceptable, and Malt will, like all the others, learn that with his maturity…and really I am in no `race` to be the `first` at anything…certification or other…simply sharing this amazing breed with amazing people.
     
  14. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    Zing's won't go up because she's under 12 months old at the time of prelim. Only dogs over 12 months will have prelims go up.
     
  15. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    So it's ok for you to ask for change with something you feel is important, merle x merle breeding, but not ok for someone else to ask for change for something they feel is important?

    Also, I NEVER applied for one of your dogs, I have NEVER seen the contract. Do not imply that I am not good enough for your contract.
     
  16. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Gotcha, I thought that was the case.
     
  17. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I have to admit being a bit taken back by this all and wish to ask if my "not certifying" my dogs is a pre requisite to being a part of this forum then I will make small and not be a bother anymore...I simply have heard about this forum from people in common and the coolie talk on it and thought my presence would be welcome because your information here is pretty one sided with nothing to compare to...judgements are being made on the basis of 2 young girls experience with what?....3 coolies in total (all from the same kennel) and yes you did inquire about acquiring a AValon Pup thru facebook sara, and we never got to the questionaire or contract because i made it clear i would not let a pup go on breeding contract after what CCC did with Barcoo...and you know it very well...hence why you went with a breeder that doesnt have a contract....and merle to merle breeding is my fight to fight as certifying is yours...and all i have ever asked is that be respected....people want to certify their dogs, GO FOR IT!! Hell please anyone with a Avalon pup is more then welcome to it as well....no issues there but i reserve the right to not send the xrays in and to not certify my dogs if i want to....the same way people wanting to breed merle to merle can go right ahead and do it, i just choose not to associate with them....or people that have their dogs on chains and breed them on chains and let 2 or 3 pups pass from being squished by moms on chains, or dont do puppy testing, or dont have breeding contracts, or let pups go before min 8 weeks, or breeders that breed young dogs, or aggressive dogs, or people that sell whatever pup to first come first serve....i simply dont associate with them
     
  18. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    Feel free to share that message, the first time I contacted you was after I committed to getting a dog from Richie.
     
  19. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    I find this incredibly hypocritical.

    I have stayed out of this since you joined. I've not risen to a single thing said by you or Vandogs since you decided I was the devil incarnate but I seem unable to keep that up, right or wrong.

    I have always thought and still do that Avalon Coolies producing very very nice dogs and in fact at least once a month seem to recommend Avalon Coolies to people looking for a C/Koolie. I've told multiple people I really like your dogs and I've tried to extend courtesy to you whenever possible even though my feelings where incredibly hurt and continue to be hurt by your words and actions.

    I'm tired of this. I don't know what I did to make you hate me so much Shawn but I'm just sick of it. I hate the feeling that you are following me around the net to find ways to twist things I say, take them out of context, make them negative or even something completely different. I'm tried of you taking jabs at me about things you think I've said, feel, think. I'm tired of the veiled insults about my dogs. I'm just tired of this.

    You came to conclusions about my intentions, my beliefs, my thoughts, my desires before I even had Didgie in country. You never asked me, you never spoke to me and you never came to me like a decent human being.

    But you will do as you have continued to do and there is nothing I can do to change it. You refuse to ask me what I actually think and instead choose to pass judgments and ridicule with no actual fact behind it. I find that sad. I find that frustrating. I find that hurtful. But it's not going to change and I know that. But one day I really do hope you look back and if not regret your actions, at least refrain from doing this to someone else.

    I wouldn't sign your contract not because of a desire to breed a dog from you but rather because I do not alter my dogs without a medical reason to. It's a personal decision and has nothing to do with breeding or not but rather what I find healthiest for my dogs and I don't feel comfortable co-owing when 51% is owned by you until they are altered. At this point more so because I don't trust you at all than any issue with co-owing in general.

    And now I'm going to go cuddle with my dogs that I absolutely adore and wouldn't change for the world and don't regret for a second getting.
     
  20. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I can if youd like....and if the timing was after you comitted to a pup from Ritchie and your lack of persuit of a pup from me came after our discussion over Avalon not selling pups under breeding contracts then I can only think you were looking to create a breeding pair .... and so my beeding practices or lack of certification was not a problem then for you
     

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