Health Testing Pets

[Spiritwind]

DM is the latest "baddie" in the breed that people are testing for. My puppy could be DM clear or a carrier (but not affected) and she will be tested upon her arrival here.

Our hope is that she is DM clear, but one never knows.

Just curious what DM is for your breed?? We have a skin/muscle disease in Collies that we call DM, but there is not test for it -- it's actually called Dermatomyositis.

-- Oh, never mind, I think I might have found the answer to my question.

Or if I was working with collies, it would be worth it to know specifically about all the puppies eyes, not just ones in breeding or show homes. I wouldn't be as concerned with every puppy's elbows and stuff, not typically an issue.

All Collie puppies, regardless of pet or show quality should have their eyes tested by a certificated vet ophthalmologist, by the breeder BEFORE they leave the breeders home. This should be done around 6-7 weeks of age. The cost of this should not be added to the puppy purchase price, as I feel this is the very basic test the breeder should do, if they are going to breed Collies. The place I take my puppies, for a litter of 5 (what my litters usually are) it's about $200, not to bad..

I know there are "breeders" out there that don't test anything but what they are keeping, or don't test any of the puppies at all... or breeders who add the cost of CERF checks for CEA to the cost of the puppy. I wouldn't call these reputable breeders though! The ones I've seen who do this are the ones who are breeding badly bred, pet quality dogs!

As far as rechecking as adults... it can be a good idea to do it around 5-6 yrs of age just to make sure there is nothing else going on with the eyes.... but as far as CEA goes, what they have as a puppy, is what they will be for the rest of their life. If they are normal eyed, or even CRC as a puppy, that is all they will ever been... with regards to CEA. Now a VERY large coloboma could later turn into a detached retina, but I've never had any eye checks like that before. In the past I have had, on occasion (I think 3 puppies in total) tiny pin point colobomas, but they are so small the dog is not at risk for detached retina, and they are in pet homes, as nothing with a coloboma will be bred.... however I haven't had any colobomas in any of my puppies or litters for several years now!

Yes, PRA is seen in the breed, in certain lines, but isn't terribly common, but now there is a DNA test for it, so there is no reason to do yearly CERFs to look for PRA affected dogs, if you do the DNA test once.

 

[Dekka]

hmm what is the typical cost for a collie puppy? Why is it assumed its not ok for the breeder to try to break even on a litter? (assuming they aren't charging an arm and a leg)

I don't get the "its not ok to pass the cost along" So what things ARE ok to pass the cost along? Showing, stud fee, food, microchipping, shots? I mean shots are a basic need for pups.. do we not expect that cost to be added to the price of the pup? To me it all boils down to if each pup costs about 800 to produce (for example) why is then not ok to charge at least 800 for the pup?

In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me... ) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?

 

[Spiritwind]

hmm what is the typical cost for a collie puppy? Why is it assumed its not ok for the breeder to try to break even on a litter? (assuming they aren't charging an arm and a leg)

I don't get the "its not ok to pass the cost along" So what things ARE ok to pass the cost along? Showing, stud fee, food, microchipping, shots? I mean shots are a basic need for pups.. do we not expect that cost to be added to the price of the pup? To me it all boils down to if each pup costs about 800 to produce (for example) why is then not ok to charge at least 800 for the pup?

In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me... ) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?

That wasn't exactly what I mean. I've seen so many back-yard breeders in Collies who breed badly bred dogs.. dogs that obviously FAR from the breed standard, dogs that should not be bred, but they are normal eyed, and other than eyes.. they or the parents have no other health tests.. and they justify breeding these badly bred dogs that barely look like Collies, because they are normal eyed, and jack up the price more than $1000. I've see some up to $1500-$1600... and these are badly bred pet quality dogs that are normal eyed!

Most show breeders don't charge that much for a well bred show prospect puppy!!

Oh.. and as far as the typical cost of a Collie puppy. Well bred puppy from a reputable breeder is USUALLY in the range of $700-$1000. It really depends on the terms of the contract.

 

[sammgirl]

The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy

Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics

It's Degenerative Myelopathy:

[

Degenerative myelopathy is a progressive disease of the spinal cord in older dogs. The disease has an insidious onset typically between 8 and 14 years of age. It begins with a loss of coordination (ataxia) in the hind limbs. The affected dog will wobble when walking, knuckle over or drag the feet. This can first occur in one hind limb and then affect the other. As the disease progresses, the limbs become weak and the dog begins to buckle and has difficulty standing. The weakness gets progressively worse until the dog is unable to walk. The clinical course can range from 6 months to 1 year before dogs become paraplegic. If signs progress for a longer period of time, loss of urinary and fecal continence may occur and eventually weakness will develop in the front limbs. Another key feature of DM is that it is not a painful disease.

We also have Addisons, PHPT, Hip Dysplasia, and other auto immune disorders are WAY to common IMHO.

The DM test is new, but my breeder is VERY health consious and so she was right on that as soon as the test for it came out. Now, all of her stock has been tested.

My puppy will hopefully be DM clear, but could also be a carrier. We will test her as soon as she is in the states.

Here is an affected corgi:

 

[Spiritwind]

The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy

Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics

It's Degenerative Myelopathy:

[

We also have Addisons, PHPT, Hip Dysplasia, and other auto immune disorders are WAY to common IMHO.

The DM test is new, but my breeder is VERY health consious and so she was right on that as soon as the test for it came out. Now, all of her stock has been tested.

My puppy will hopefully be DM clear, but could also be a carrier. We will test her as soon as she is in the states.

Here is an affected corgi:

Thanks for the info. After I posted my question, I went and looked it up. I know very little about Cogris, but after what I read online and what you posted, I do remember back when I lived in Ohio, and worked at a vet clinic up there, we had a frequent boarder that was pembroke, who ended up with this... and later had to be put down. Or at least I'm assuming this was what he had. It's been several years so I don't totally remember.

In all other products we buy we pay for the health and saftey testing in the purchase price. We don't expect manufacturers to eat those costs...

Enough things go wrong with litters (trust me...) that you will end up loosing money. Why expect breeders start out planning on loosing money?

Also wanted to add.. regardless of whether a person sells their puppies for $200 or $800 or more, doing eye checks should not be an option. They need to be done. It's not something that only show or breeding prospect puppies should be checked for, every single puppy in the litter should be checked for CEA. It also NEEDS to be done by 8 wks of age, to be 100% accurate, sometimes earlier. As I said before it costs me about $200 to have a litter of 5 puppies checked, that's $40 per puppy. It's not horribly expensive.

 

[sillysally]

But wouldn't you want to know if your dog had health issues? I mean I know you might not just do it on your own.. but isn't that why you would go to a good breeder? Cause you care about healthy dogs?

Why is the onus all on the breeder? I would think that people should embrace the idea (if not the practice) of supporting health testing. I do ask my puppy buyers to do a CERF test once after the dog is 4-5. Its $50. I suppose I could tack on an extra 50 to the puppy price...

Unless the breeder is wealthy they would likely just add the cost to the initial price. Personally I would rather have the cost spread out.

If someone is buying from a breeder that health tests as opposed to one that doesn't then they are supporting health testing. I would concede to going halfsies with the breeder on health testing, but since the testing is just as much for the breeder's benefit (if not more) than the puppy owner's I don't think that the puppy buyer should be required to pay all of it *unless* they just do it of their own choice.

 

[Dekka]

Then the breeder should just add it to the initial cost of the pup.. problem solved. I mean its a cost incurred whilst trying to breed properly. Just like good food, vet care, etc. All those costs get factored in.. so why not health tests? Microchipping costs get factored in, and they are benefit to both breeder and buyer.

 

[ponbc]

We CERF and BAER test all of our pups before they leave. Hips are done on adults and although it'd be nice if everyone did it, it's not a requirement for puppy buyers. Anything we keep, though, is OFAed and many of our puppy buyers do OFA because they do a lot work/performance.

 

[SpringerLover]

My two pets are health tested. Yes, for my own knowledge, but also to provide statistical data. Bailey was tested more as I learned more. She had her hips done originally because her brother is dysplastic. I HAD to know then, if I wanted to continue dog sports with her.

Bailey-Hips, Elbows, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, CERF (we argue about the thyroid--she IS hypothyroid dangnabbit)

Buzz-Hips, Elbows, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, CERF (he had a thyroid panel run at the vet and all was clear, that is one where the cost is double to send it to an OFA approved lab, so I said no to that "official" test)

I didn't do CERFs until I learned a little more about them. We didn't have them done in 2009 (their last was end of Nov. 2008) but they are schedule for the end of Feb, this year. I wasn't stressed or concerned about getting them done "yearly" but it is great data to have with competition dogs in addition to breeding dogs.

Breeder incentives appeal to me a lot. If I ever breed, it is most definitely what I will do. Put away a portion of the purchase price to help pay for it. I would probably ask for hips/elbows and eyes at least once past the puppy CERF regardless of breed.

 

[sillysally]

Just kind of a question for all on the thread--Do you think that requiring a puppy buyer to do health testing on their pet (either partially or completely paid for by the buyer) would discourage people from buying from reputable breeders?

With labs, if you go with a good breeder you are already paying hundreds more for a pup than you will with pretty much any BYB. I personally would never go to a BYB over a reputable breeder just over a few hundred dollars worth of testing (or at all), but then I am an "Extremist" and there are many "Mainstream" (heehee--sorry couldn't resist) pet buyers that might not feel that way.

I wonder if making it that much more expensive/a hassle for puppy buyers is going to cause more to go to BYBs. I realize that with certain more rare breeds this is not as much of a concern, but with the more popular ones I could foresee it being an issue if every reputable breeder started requiring hundreds of dollars in testing from their puppy buyers.....

Just a thought....

 

[Dekka]

Oh it might. But people will be lazy anyway. I don't think you are going to change people that way. I have talked to people who can buy a JRT for 250 and don't see the issue with that! They think people are crazy for paying more. So a couple of hundred difference wouldn't change their opinion. THose people already don't care about health tests etc.

 

[mom2dogs]

Just kind of a question for all on the thread--Do you think that requiring a puppy buyer to do health testing on their pet (either partially or completely paid for by the buyer) would discourage people from buying from reputable breeders?

With labs, if you go with a good breeder you are already paying hundreds more for a pup than you will with pretty much any BYB. I personally would never go to a BYB over a reputable breeder just over a few hundred dollars worth of testing (or at all), but then I am an "Extremist" and there are many "Mainstream" (heehee--sorry couldn't resist) pet buyers that might not feel that way.

I wonder if making it that much more expensive/a hassle for puppy buyers is going to cause more to go to BYBs. I realize that with certain more rare breeds this is not as much of a concern, but with the more popular ones I could foresee it being an issue if every reputable breeder started requiring hundreds of dollars in testing from their puppy buyers.....

Just a thought....

But there is always going to be something a "mainstream" buyer would be turned off by. The price, the screening, obligations, etc. You can't please everyone, and one has to think about what's best for their dogs/puppies/breed/program VS making someone happy. Honestly, if someone is turned off because I will require they need to have the puppy health tested, then I will suggest going to a rescue or another breeder who feels differently. If someone doesn't feel that health testing is important (or doesn't take the time to look for another breeder), and would rather go to a BYB to be a part of the problem instead of part of the solution, then I don't want them having one of my puppies in the first place.

 

[sillysally]

Oh it might. But people will be lazy anyway. I don't think you are going to change people that way. I have talked to people who can buy a JRT for 250 and don't see the issue with that! They think people are crazy for paying more. So a couple of hundred difference wouldn't change their opinion. THose people already don't care about health tests etc.

There are always going to be some people who can't see paying more for a dog for any reason--I'm more talking about people "on the edge" so to speak.

The reason I actually bring it up is my husband. He is not, as he calls it "a dog dork" like me. However, especially seeing the effects with Jack that a dysplasia can have on a dog, he most definitely "gets" the importance of health tests. If he thinks it will be helpful for the dog, he also has no issue spending money. We took out a loan on his 401K to pay for Jack's bone chip removal and physical therapy for months afterward. He doesn't complain about all the money we've spent on supplements and never so much as grumbles at the hundreds we've spent on swim/massage therapy for Jack. I should also mention an $1100 bowel obstruction surgery paid for without complaint as well....

However, when I mentioned this thread to him, he thought that a full battery of health tests for a seemingly healthy "pet" dog whose parents have been health tested was excessive if being paid for by the puppy buyer.

Now, would it drive *him* into the arms of a BYB? Probably not. If it were that much of an issue he would go for an adult rescue dog as he prefers bypass the puppy stage if possible anyway. BUT, if it gives HIM pause, it is likely to do so for much less crazy men.....

 

[xpaeanx]

There are always going to be some people who can't see paying more for a dog for any reason--I'm more talking about people "on the edge" so to speak.

The reason I actually bring it up is my husband. He is not, as he calls it "a dog dork" like me. However, especially seeing the effects with Jack that a dysplasia can have on a dog, he most definitely "gets" the importance of health tests. If he thinks it will be helpful for the dog, he also has no issue spending money. We took out a loan on his 401K to pay for Jack's bone chip removal and physical therapy for months afterward. He doesn't complain about all the money we've spent on supplements and never so much as grumbles at the hundreds we've spent on swim/massage therapy for Jack. I should also mention an $1100 bowel obstruction surgery paid for without complaint as well....

However, when I mentioned this thread to him, he thought that a full battery of health tests for a seemingly healthy "pet" dog whose parents have been health tested was excessive if being paid for by the puppy buyer.

Now, would it drive *him* into the arms of a BYB? Probably not. If it were that much of an issue he would go for an adult rescue dog as he prefers bypass the puppy stage if possible anyway. BUT, if it gives HIM pause, it is likely to do so for much less crazy men.....

If we're speaking stickly pet here(the most "adventure" the dog gets is maybe some hiking, camping, and boating on weekends)... I kind of feel the same way. And, while I wouldn't mind paying an additional $300 or less for some testing on him down the road, I dont' think I'd want to be paying much more than that. And if the the price of health testing, blew the price of the puppy to a *really* high price, I wouldn't like that either. Now, I wouldn't buy a dog out of the paper, I'd just look for a breeder that fit what I was willing to do.

One thing that would help keep cost down though, is to only do the really necissary testing... and also maybe skip on the offical grading. You can go to a very respected vet and have hips and elbowed x-rayed and just take his evaluation... you don't need to send them into OFA for the "offical" grading... that will save a good amount of $. The thing with pets is that you want to know that they are healthy, but you're not breeding from them... so they don't need the same drill as breeding stock does(would it be nice, yes. Is it really *needed*, no.)

 

[Fran101]

me & romeos breeder are going to go half/half on paying for health testing. the way I see it, its a win win for both of us. She gets to see how a typical healthy dog from her breeding program is doing and I get the health tests to make sure romeo is doing alright.

I also got Kenyas hips rated before we wanted to get into agility (just in case), IMO its a great thing for pet owners to do

 

[SpringerLover]

Just to pipe up about the price of getting the radiographs graded. It is $40 total for hips/elbows to be graded, and if you send 3 or more from a litter in at one time, it's even cheaper. I don't think the cost of having the xrays read and graded is the real deterrent, or I'd be paying for it out of pocket! I think the couple hundred dollar actual xrays or bloodwork is the deterrent, or am I wrong?

If you submit hips/elbows, then it's free to have shoulders graded too!

 

[xpaeanx]

Just to pipe up about the price of getting the radiographs graded. It is $40 total for hips/elbows to be graded, and if you send 3 or more from a litter in at one time, it's even cheaper. I don't think the cost of having the xrays read and graded is the real deterrent, or I'd be paying for it out of pocket! I think the couple hundred dollar actual xrays or bloodwork is the deterrent, or am I wrong?

If you submit hips/elbows, then it's free to have shoulders graded too!

oh, for some reason I had it in my head that it was $40 each... which, $80 in the long run isn't a lot... but when you add it to what you're already shelling out.... well, it's nicer to not have to. LOL.

I wonder if a few breeders could get together and make a deal with a local vet that they'll send their local puppy buyers/test their own dogs through them for a reduced price.... that might help a little.

 

[SpringerLover]

We actually had someone call the clinic, wanting xrays on 3 littermates. My vet hadn't heard of the reduced fee before, but I showed her on the paperwork where it says "Animals Over 24 Months
Hip dysplasia databaseonly•. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$35.00
Hips plus elbows (together)• . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$40.00
Elbow dysplasia database only• . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$35.00
Litter of 3 or more submitted together• . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$90.00
Kennel Rate—Individuals submitted as a group, owned/co-owned by same person.
Minimum of 5 individuals• . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$15 per study"
Link

I talk about OFA because it's what I know. There ARE other places that do official xray grading too. Namely, WCVM and OVC in Canada, and PennHIP here. I know Cornell and the U of MN grade xrays too.

 

[xpaeanx]

^I meant reduced rate, as in the vet themselves would charge less for the x-rays, blood work, and sedation knowing that they will be getting more business bc a group of breeders will only be using them.

And I know the vets have some wiggle room with their prices because when I was working for a vet, I had Bailey x-rayed for $5(cost to patients would have $75), I had his bloodwork done for $20(cost to patients would have been $90).

 

[SpringerLover]

Ahha, that too! Our springer club has hosted health clinics before. When the PRA test came out, we got free blood draws, and only had to pay for the sample evaluation. A LOT of dogs were tested that wouldn't have been otherwise because of it. It was a brilliant idea.

I bet at least a couple vets would be open to that idea! It would certainly get them more business, and a good name for being willing to work with people.