having a hard time finding a Show puppy!

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by MissMosaic, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. MissMosaic

    MissMosaic Sibe Crazy

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    I have been looking into getting a Show Siberian husky pup from a reputable breeder for a while. I wont be planning on actually buying the pup for a few years. I just want to pick a breeder, get to know all the dogs pedigrees, and then possibly even meet up with the breeder to get some pointers..

    So far I haven't had much luck with any breeders willing to sell a show quality pup without a co-own, to a novice. I don't really want to co-own, because I don't like how the breeder can just take the dog whenever they want.. For breeding rights whenever they please. Plus, I wouldn't want my dog taken away without me with it.. So ya, I'm thinking about going to the states to get my future puppy.. Anyone have a recommended breeder??
     
  2. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Have you gone through a BC breed club ???
     
  3. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    Most breeders will not sell to a novice for full ownership. You need to read the terms of the contract. A lot of times it says they will co-own until the dog is finished and all proper tests are done. Then they sign off and you have full ownership. Co-ownership doesn't mean they can take the dog away at will. Especially if you have a good contract that protects your rights aw well as the breeders.

    Co-ownerships can be a blessing for people new to the show ring. Look at it from the breeders perspective, they have a REALLY nice puppy. They will definitely want the dog shown, so why place it on full ownership in a home who might fizzle out and decide they don't want to finish the dog? This happens a lot, which is why you usually won't find a breeder who will sell outright. If the breeder is willing to sell you the puppy on full ownership, chances are it's not a very nice dog, it may finish, but no big loss to the breeder if it doesn't.

    Are you looking for a dog or bitch?
     
  4. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    Dance is on a co-ownership between her breeder and I. Dance's breeder can't take her away from me without my say whenever she feels like it for showing, breeding, etc., and we haven't really discussed her being bred yet since she's only a year old and not even pointed in conformation, but she did tell me that I have the choice of whether I want the litter to me at my house or at hers when I bought Dance. After she has had one litter, has had all of her health testing done, and has recieved her ch. title, full ownership will be transferred to me. Honestly, half of the time I forget that Dance is co-owned, as having her has been no different from having our other dogs in the house who are not co-owned. As long as you're comfortable with the breeder, and have thoroughly read and are comfortable with their co-ownership contract, I don't see it as a big deal.
     
  5. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    I'm not surprised, honestly. I don't know of any breeders that will give a show quality dog to a novice without a co-ownership. OutlineACD really hit on some great points, and I wholeheartedly agree with what she said. Also - if you're a breeder and you sell a show quality dog outright to a novice, what do you do if that novice turns around and starts studding that dog out - in essence, dragging your good kennel name into the mud of BYBs. Breeders put a lot of work into protecting and preserving their breed, and it's a slap in the face when one of "their dogs" ends up in a BYB situation.

    Contracts protect breeders, and can also help a novice. It can help break a novice into the show world, and help the owner with some of the costs of breeding a litter/health testing etc. It is also a wonderful way for a novice owner to learn from an experienced person in the breed.

    I co-own my male with my breeder. Granted he's retired and neutered now, but it was always a very beneficial arrangement. Handling fees were cheaper since she paid half PLUS got me a discount with her handler. Even now, I keep her name on my dog's papers as a sign of respect for the work she's done. I'm proud to co-own a dog with her.

    And like Toller said - most of the time I forget that he's co-owned. With the right contract and the right breeder, co-ownership is a wonderful thing.
     
  6. A co-ownership does not mean the breeder can or will just take your puppy. However, one should be very familiar with what the breeder expects of you before signing a contract.

    Most of the time a co-own agreement will specify that the dog should be shown and finished, and have requirements for breeding such as health testing and/or titling requirements, both for your dog and the dog you might select to breed it to later. Sometimes there are puppies back, or a clause that states the breeder can collect or use a male dog on bitches they own or co-own. Breeders want to be able to use a dog if it turns out to be outstanding as an adult. Often even experienced breeders find that the best puppy of a litter turns out not to be the one(s) they selected at 8 to 10 weeks. In this way the dogs who turn out nice are not lost to their breeding program.

    What show ring experience do you have? What do YOU bring to the table that would cause a breeder to place an outstanding puppy with you?

    Why would you expect a breeder who sells a puppy to someone on a co-own would not want to use that puppy later if it develops into something outstanding? How is this a negative for the person who owns the dog?

    If you are conveying to breeders that you want a puppy and you do not want to offer or allow anything back to the breeder in return, you will find it very difficult to convince most breeders of excellence to place a puppy with you. Breeders do not want to enter into a 10+ year relationship with someone who is going to be hard to get along with.

    A co-own agreement with the right breeder can be a GOOD thing. You get a mentor along with the puppy!

    I have co-owned several dogs. I co-own Penny with her breeder. Never an issue. I co-own several puppies out of my recent litter. No issues.

    If you pick the RIGHT BREEDER, and if you live up to your end of the bargain, a co-own agreement need not be cumbersome or limiting.

    I do think a co-own should have an ending point. Mine ends once a puppy has its final health testing at age 2, and is titled or altered.

    I would suggest you look around and see if there are any breed specific mailing lists (Groups at Yahoo.com is a good place to look for mailing lists) that you can join. If it's possible, join the National Club. Attend dog shows and talk to breeders and look at their dogs. Join an all breed club. In this way you can get to know some people and find out who you feel you might be able to work with.
     
  7. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

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    All 3 of my dogs are on a co-own. If your goals mesh with those of the breeder, they aren't an inconvenience at all. In fact, they're a good thing.
     
  8. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    I recently fulfilled my co own with Nonnie who was an adult Ch when I purchased her. She is mine outright now, worked out fine. I also co own a very nice bitch puppy of hers with a Jr.

    I would not expect full out ownership of a nice show dog of any age, as a novice or even experienced person new to that breed.
     
  9. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    BTW co owns CAN get very very ugly when people are not honest. I did them when I had to and I will not buy another hound on one if I can avoid it. I have however earned this by breeding a couple of nice dogs and showing myself to be responsible.

    everything in writing...everything. Always remember that.
     
  10. Sapphire-Light

    Sapphire-Light woof!

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    Ekk :yikes: , another stone in my way or importing a puppy.
     
  11. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    Sapphire - are you looking at importing a dog to be a show dog in Honduras? I only ask because in more than a few breeds, it's not something that is looked upon as responsible for the breeder. Unfortunately many dogs sent to other countries to be shown are mistreated or left to break down... I have heard stories of a few Dobermans sent to Asian countries that have come back in horrible shape. Then again, I know of a few who live in the lap of luxury.

    I don't want to scare you - but be aware that here in the US, breeders exporting show quality dogs to other countries is often frowned upon. :(
     
  12. Sapphire-Light

    Sapphire-Light woof!

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    Wow that sounds bad.

    I wish breeders could be more understandable with people in general and people in other countries that dosen't have quality.

    Like 85% of show dogs here where purshased at petshops . 3% imported from beeders and the rest are visitors from other countries .

    Maybe my hope is some mexican breeders that come to show here, seein the other dogs quality with they own eyes can problably want to help getting a good dog. :/


    I just think that isen't a breeder's main goal to imprube a breed? so why they keep so many tabs and obstacles to potential buyers who want to have a well breed dog too? some of them aren't even interested in hearing a person that's asking about the dogs.

    That's why many people that comes with the nicest intention get desespered and buy from a pet shop. :eek:
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2008
  13. From my point of view as a breeder, I am responsible for what my dogs produce, both male and female.

    It is my DUTY as a breeder to oversee the show ring and breeding careers of these dogs, and to ensure the ones who should not be bred are NOT. This is what we call STEWARDSHIP of a breed.

    One of the reasons why so many breeders are reluctant to sell dogs outside the US is that one loses the ability to really have any control over what happens to and with the dog.

    When that puppy is born into your hand, and you watch it take that first breath, after all the blood sweat money and tears that goes into EVERY BREEDING, it is only natural to want the best for those puppies, and to do your best to see to it they are managed and attended to properly.
     
  14. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    Beagles get exported often. You just have to know the kennels to stay away from. Many many times dogs are finished stateside...paid for by the new owners...then sent overseas to do the same in their own countries and add to the genepool there. The breeder stateside actually visit the other country as well so there is a relationship built.

    That is how it is in Beagles. Exporting is done...and it's no biggie. Same with Akitas.
    ETA: goes both ways...there are many Beagles here from overseas. UK, Oz/NZ, Europe and Asia.
     
  15. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    Smudge is co-owned. At 24 few breeders actually wanted to talk to me even about pet ownership.. As I had no credit to my name and I was young. Smudge is full registration but co-owned. Doesn't feel like it. I like our contract, and I'd have to agree to take him back to be used as stud. Probably won' t happen as that fizzle out thing mentioned.. I'm not loving the show ring as the cocker people here are brutal.

    But I have three titles on my other dog, and am starting to pursue titles on Smudge as well.. I hope in future tryign to find my next dog, It'll give me a step up from where I was looking for Smudge.
     
  16. huskyloves

    huskyloves where fur is a condiment.

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    MissMosaic, everyone here is right on the money, co-ownership is a good thing, especially since the good Siberian breeders are pulling their collective hair out over the number of dogs in petshops and rescue.

    Contact Gerry Delakian, I believe she's still involved with the breed club, she should be able to point you in the right direction, but getting a show quality pup from a top notch breeder is kind of like the old Groucho Marx joke, the one about not joining a club that would have him as a member, lol, so be prepared to be unbelievably patient. Irwin Winkler would also be a great breeder to contact, he produces an amazingly beautiful Sibe with temperaments to match, but I don't know how much he's producing these days.
     
  17. MissMosaic

    MissMosaic Sibe Crazy

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    wow you gusy have really opened my eyes to what co-owning really entails.. I would be very happy to co-own a puppy if the breeder would co-own till all health testing is done, and till she has her championship in the showring :). I am looking to show and do agility with my girl. I want a female sibe, not a male. I have no real preferance on color or anything eles along those lines except being show quailty. I have to say thanks to everyone who replied to my thread! I had no idea so many people co-owned dogs!! My best friend wolfsoul- has a belgian, and she is co-owned with her breeder.. she has never had a problem either.. and she still keeps a friendly relationship with her dogs breeder.. I want what she has so badly, she has her dog, and a good realtionship witht he breeder, and she shows/and does agility with her. She just imported some frozen semen, and will be breeding her this upcoming summer.. I am so excited for little baby belgians runnignaround :D. I dont care about breeding so much, I just want the dog for companionship, and to do activities like showing and agility.. But most of all I want a pet, and if that is what I end up with, I will just sign that spay contract, and have just that... But I am so passionate about showing, I have always wanted to do it.. I don thave any show quality dogs, so I couldn't even enter in the altered class in dog shows.. But I will, one day.. I am determined....



    thanks again everyone :). I am thinking about going to the states to get my sibe anyways, I haven't had alot of luck in Canada as far as the "look" of the dogs that I want..
     
  18. All the best luck to you in finding that wonderful gorgeous bitch that you wish for so strongly.

    I think you will find a great breeder to work with, and I think that breeder will be delighted with what you accomplish with "their" dog.

    Keep us posted!
     
  19. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    It's good to see so many dedicated breeders here !!! I do understand co-ownership in today's world . I was lucky 50 years ago to be able to breed to a Champion without a lot of paperwork ! He was so impressed in Bushwacker he asked me if he could take him to a Golden Speciality 2 states away . Lord I hated to see him off , but he won a 1st and I still use his little silver bowl .
     

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