GSD Question...

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by sillysally, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    So I've been looking at a lot if GSD breeder websites, especially German show line dogs. I have a couple if questions about structure that I was hoping someone could answer...

    Are all of the German showline dogs really that roach backed, or is it th way they are stacked? They also seem fairly sloped to me in the hindquarters--does this (plus the each back) have a negative effect on their athletic ability?
     
  2. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    its how they are shaped, and yes, it has a huge detrimental effect on their movement and health
     
  3. RBark

    RBark Got Floof?

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    It has no more a negative effect than the American's sloped backs. That said, you can find less extreme versions of both lines. My priscilla had a slight roach back but nowhere near to the extremes, which I think is due to her being from primarily working german lines.
     
  4. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Some look more roached from the stack, some are very much roached without it. I can't say I care much for it myself.

    How does it affect their athletic ability?

    I don't know, most showline dogs i've worked are generally bigger, slower, and less driven. That is a general statement because some are very athletic and driven, but it's fewer and farther between.

    Like always, go see the dogs, do you like how they move? can they change direction on a dime, accelerate quickly, zero to top speed and back to zero quickly? can they jump? If they have a bunch of dogs that can move how you want them too and well into adulthood, who cares what I have to say :)

    I know what I see when I work dogs, to me, the extremes don't do anything for me except extremely turn me off. But that's me
     
  5. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I know some German Showline breeders who don't.breed for extremes and whose dogs can also.work very very well.

    You will find extremes if you look. So, no, not all German Shorelines are built like that.
     
  6. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Oh totally...

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    ;)
     
  7. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    The extreme sloped backs can certainly have a negative effect on their athletic ability. There is one that runs agility around here. It is painful to watch because the dog is clearly physically struggling to perform. The last time I saw the dog I had to turn away from the ring, I couldn't watch it anymore.

    That said, as others have said, an extreme is an extreme - not all of them are bred to that extent.
     
  8. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    There are some who are obviously worse than others. I know a good handful of WGSL dogs that have a slope (as according to the breed standard) and they are titled in multiple sport venues without any detrimentel effects on the way they move...

    My own male is half WGSL and is IPO3 twice at only 4 years old. He gets along just fine.

    [​IMG]
    Aiden IPO3 11/9/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

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    LWDC Trial-9/7/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

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    LWDC Trial-9/7/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

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    LWDC Trial-9/7/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

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    9/2/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr
     
  9. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    Gator-I do really like how your boy looks. Is it common for the German showlines to be crossed with working lines?

    I keep researching breeds and keep coming back to GSDs and labs...
     
  10. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Yes most German showlines are roachy, some very much so and some hardly at all. Often the way they are stacked exaggerates it, they tend to look better standing on their own. There's some very nice German showline dogs out there, structure wise and some not so nice ones - just like any other type of GSD. They have gotten more rear in recent times for sure, although still generally not as much as a typical American showline. And they don't IME tend to have the loose ligaments Amline GSDs are prone to. There are tricks to make them look more extreme in the rear in stacked pictures too, although of course, the dogs have to have some length in the thigh bones to accomplish it. So again, it's nice to see the dogs standing on their own or a video or see them in person.

    Can too much length of rear leg bones hinder a dog's athletic ability? Sure. So can too little. German Showlines still are bred to SV standards so they still have to get a conformation rating, a working title (which is only an IPO or HGH) and a hip rating.

    This page has some nice examples of GSLs:
    http://www.vomhausmiller.com/Imported%20german%20shepherd%20dogs.htm

    Are you looking to get a GSL?
     
  11. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    This. Their backs don't slope. The length of bone between the stifle and hock is crazy long. When they stand normally you don't see the slope. It's when you stack them and pull the legs out behind them. They extend out so far because of the length, which gives the illusion of a sloping back.
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I was looking up the breeder of my GSD that I had back in the 80's. He was more the old fashioned GSD or "old world." He had some angulation but not too much. He was fairly heavily boned, very sturdy and could run like the wind and trot for hours, lots of ground coverage with little effort. Powerful. I don't like how they're breeding them now at all....don't go for the hocks on the ground, the extreme length and the slope it makes. What happened to Rin Tin Tin?

    This is derived from the breeder of my last GSD, Ajax. Von Nassau (Ann Mesdag) RIP. She was world renowned...a lot of really nice dogs. But this Shilo must have bought her Kennel or breeding business...or has her lines...something. I'm not sure if they've kept her old world standards going or not. She and her husband passed away a while back.

    I think they've ruined GSDs (generally, not all) in recent times. I've seen a lot of weak looking, nervous GSDs recently.

    http://shilohpedigrees.tripod.com/gesha.htm

    Some other food for thought...interesting read. (part)

    http://www.shawlein.com/2012/gsdca-in-trouble-part-1/
     
  13. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I would be more concerned about the number of vertebrae, hip and elbow health than conformation, within extremes.

    Those dedicated can do great things with dogs who're less ideal in build (and temperament) so I would look at an over all as opposed to individuals.


    Are you drawn to a WGSL for a reason?
     
  14. Crazyland

    Crazyland New Member

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    You do have more roach in the German show lines, American tend to have more slope in the rear. Show lines also tend to have less drive.
    This is also discounting those direct from Germany that operate under the SV rules. I prefer the rules of the SV than those of the AKC.
    I have two gsd that are working lines but follow the old German. My oldest does have a small roach back while his nephew has a straight back. There are many gimmicks that breeders throw at you to buy their pups. There are very few I actually would consider. But I am fortunate enough to be able to buy directly from Germany which opens up the available pups. My husband is German and we used to train our dogs there.
    You have to look carefully for what you want, genetically, temperament, conformation, drive...
     
  15. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I admire GSDs, and am fascinated by the breed. I'm interested in a large (not giant), athletic, biddable, loyal, versatile, protective (but not hardcore guardian), dog that I can do activities like hiking, fetch, go to crowded places in public, dabble in agility and obedience. I have other critters so I need a dog that won't want to eat them. I don't need a dog park dog, but I do need a dog that can live peacefully with at least one other dog (probably a lab or whippet if DH has his way) and be around a number of other dogs (in public, at a dog event) without issue. I don't need crazy drive, but enough drive that the dog wants to work and finds joy in doing things with me. A former trainer of mine had a west German show line bitch that is just a fantastic dog.

    The Ameican lines look unathletic to me and I'm under the impression from reading that I've done have temperament issues and structural problems. I've liked the working line GSDs that I've met, but have been told by other dog people and got the impression from reading online that working line GSDs are highly prey driven, highly protective, very sharp, have little, and are not very forgiving dogs. This may be totally untrue, but I've been told this more than once and don't want to get "too much" dog for my skill level-Sally and Jack are the only other dogs I've owned since childhood. As I've said though, the working line dogs I've seen at shows seemed like nice, stable dogs.

    I do realize that I just posted a thread about cavaliers, but I like a variety of different personalities in dogs.

    ETA: I do prefer the look of working line dogs, but I want to go by more than looks alone.
     
  16. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I'd have to disagree, quite a bit :) Some are sharp for sure, most however are not. None of mine are nor have they been. They are do everything dogs, they go everywhere and interact all the time. The majority of well bred working dogs are nothing but stable, with a few sharp ones sprinkled in. Knowing parents goes a long ways, and breeders that can place puppies with the right owners always help.

    I think they are incredibly forgiving dogs. From handlers that didn't have a clue, to outright abusive type training, to kids jumping on, stepping on tails, pulling on ears etc, it's been my experience they are some of the most forgiving dogs I have seen. Not every single one, but the majority.

    Of course these are dogs that have been tested, pressured and proven. not all breeders are created equal
     
  17. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    All of this ^^^^^^
     
  18. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    Will third this.

    Trent's sire is apparently known for being a little sharp among the members of the club and also known to sometimes produce that trait in his offspring. Nothing extreme or unmanageable, and I do believe a certain degree of sharpness can be a great trait in a balanced dog.

    High prey drive and protective instincts? Sure, but again, not to the extreme. Trent is the pet quality dog of the litter, exactly what I asked for. He's 5 years old now and if he really was the scary, sharp prey monster working lines are sometimes made out to be, I don't think 15 year old me could have handled that very well. He is incredibly, incredible forgiving and I could not even begin to count the mistakes I've made with him even if I tried. I wouldn't know where to start. But we've still developed a great relationship and work on new tricks (or refining/redoing old ones) with high enthusiasm. His ability to forgive my handling errors is probably one of the traits I am most thankful for.

    Overall he is just an all around stable dog that has been an excellent pet and companion through and through (even for someone like me, who wasn't entirely prepared for a working caliber dog). Not without the challenges, but I think if the dog is stable and forgiving and driven, it can make things easier.
     
  19. chrisjhon1980

    chrisjhon1980 New Member

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    Is German showline dogs = roach back german shepherd ???

    BB code is On
     

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