GO AWAY cue

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Taqroy, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    I need one. It'll really be a "go away and stay away doing your own thing" cue. Mu spent most of last weekend guarding me from the eeeeeevil intentions of my parent's dog. I'm a little over it, especially because she emits piercing banshee shrieks every time she flies at Max's face. So, how do I teach it? I have a touch target that she will go away from me to but I don't know how to teach the stay away part. Ideas?
     
  2. Cthulhu7

    Cthulhu7 Mitch & Erin

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    Is it just a socialization problem? Does she generally act aggressive towards other dogs? Because that would be a whole different issue
     
  3. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    This behavior is really a resource guarding problem. And since the resource is me it makes it very hard for me to work on. Time outs are extremely effective but I can't always institute a time out when she's doing it. She does have some socialization issues that we're working on (with a behaviorist) but she's not aggressive. She's just very pushy (hello heeler side lol) and she doesn't know when to quit.
     
  4. houlahoops

    houlahoops New Member

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    We use "beat it" for everybody.

    Initially we taught it as a "place" command (so reward for leaving and lying down in a particular spot), but we gradually stopped enforcing the particular spot and instead rewarded for general motion away from the person giving the command. It takes a ton of repetition at first, but at least with our guys it stuck pretty quickly.

    Very useful when we are cooking or everybody is underfoot!
     
  5. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    If it's a resource guarding issue, remove the resource when she displays that behavior. When the other dog is around, feed her good things. Result: the unwanted behavior causes the good thing (you) to go away. displaying "nice" behavior (and the presence of the other dog) causes the good thing (s) to be given to her. (You + treats):)
     
  6. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yeah, I dunno, if you've dealt with corgi bitches before, you know that adding food into an equation that's already guardy is a bad idea. Tried it, been there. LOL. Food will often just increase the arousal level in these situations. Keeva will guard me from dogs at work that she feels are too pushy, and adding food to the situation didn't work well at all, for anybody - especially for the stupid labs who thought she didn't REALLY mean go away.

    This sounds like a great case for mat work. Teach her to drive to the mat and then add duration (no moving until released), just like a stay. :) Or crate games! What about crate games, using a pop-up crate? Then she also has a sense of safety and privacy from pushy puppies.

    Keeva screams when she's trying to drive dogs off too, it makes me lol. I dunno about Mu, but Keeva DOES NOT do your typical "resource guarding" behavior, hunched shoulders, growling - non of that. She just goes, "I DARE you..." and then when they push it, they get a face full of teeth. So far, she's just learning that acting like an ass gets you booted from my lap.

    Oh corgis, LOL.

    Also, Cthulhu7... Just because a dog doesn't want to tolerate a rude puppy near its owner doesn't mean it has "socialization issues." Dog on dog tolerance is highly variable based on way more than socialization. Heeler/cattle dog types are not known for dog tolerance nor are they SUPPOSED to be uber friendly with every dog. A desire to control the movements and behaviors of other animals in part of their nature.
     
  7. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I totally agree with Emily's post. Adding food to the picture just adds more resources to guard. Crate Games and mat work would be excellent tools to use. Also something that works with some dogs is as soon as you see the first sign of resource guarding, get up and walk away. This can get tiresome because you have to do it every time but it works with some dogs to show them that guarding is making the thing they are guarding (you!) go away.
     
  8. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I had an issue with my Doberman for a few weeks getting guardy over me and directing snarls toward my male Chihuahua. It was limited to one room, my den when I was on the computer and they were both in there. No other place did this happen. Something about that den. lol. I did some exercises every day where I'd put Jose` under a chair with rails where he was somewhat protected. I took Lyric, the Dobe out of the room into an adjacent room for a half minute or so and pay no attention to him, stood there in a very boring situation, then brought him back in the presence of Jose`and started feeding high value treats to him and paid lots of attention to him, then took him back out and ignored him. The food treats made a positive association with Jose`. In other words, he found out that Jose`'s presence didn't mean he would lose out on my attention and in fact, would increase it and all kinds of wonderful things happened. I have used this kind of method with clients' dogs who had similar issues successfully. If a dog is guarding the food, then that has to go away until he isn't. OR....the food has to come quickly before he gets a chance to display that "naughty" behavior, rewarding him for calmness. If it comes after or during the snarking, then that may be taken the wrong way. And yes, with some dogs, it can raise the excitement level, so the individual needs to be taken into account. But it works well with many dogs, as I have come to find out.
     
  9. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Oh, I'm sure it has worked well in many cases. :) But I have the sneaking suspicion that I know exactly what kind of dog Taq is dealing with and my hunch is that it will only amp things up.

    ETA: Also, I just wanted to point out that I understand the proper delivery of food in this situation. But the fact is that for many guardy dog, the mere presence food (regardless of its delivery) raises arousal. Caution should always be used when introducing another resource into a resource guarding case.
     
  10. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I've used food many times in treating resource guarding, not only with dogs in my personal life, but professionally…with clients’ dogs. That’s a common issue with dogs.

    My son’s dog, who lived with me for a couple years and visits with me a great deal of the time these days, was going after my dogs when I would be preparing their food or handing out goodies to all of them. She didn’t bite, but threatened to, lunging toward them with teeth barred. It was scary. What I did to cure it was toss a kibble to her at a frequent rate of delivery as I was preparing their meals on the counter. The little dogs would be near by and I’d keep tossing a piece of kibble. (She’s incredibly good at catching flying food.) Yes, she was ampt up because she always is when it’s food time. She‘s a sort of intense dog anyhow in general. But it kept her distracted and she learned that having the dogs around meant she would get what she wanted, not that they’d prevent her from getting food. It worked well. Now I don’t need to do that and they all 3 stand around watching me fix the food with no problems. She is perfectly confident that she will get food and the little dogs won‘t have any affect on whether she gets it or not.

    It use to be that when I’d hand out some left overs or treats to them, I’d have them all sit in a semi circle near me. Well…she’d crane her neck over to the dog next to her in a quick motion with a snaky, snarly threat. What I did was put some space between her and the next dog….about 3 feet. She did sit and stay where I asked her but she’d reach over to threaten the dog next to her. I’d hold a treat in my closed fist in front of her to keep her head over there…. while I fed the other dogs first. I showed her that by not getting the food (right away) she would get the food, even in the presence of the other dogs. Lots of treats and praise. That behavior is no longer existing. They can all be fed, given attention, given toys and there is no resource guarding at all on her part.

    As a side note: sometimes one resource is important and a dog has a problem with that, but not necessarily with another resource or not necessarily the same resource in every context. I can give examples of that left and right. Well, for one, as in my other post, my Doberman resource guarded me but ONLY in the den. Out on the couch in the family room…no problem. Kitchen with food involved…no problem. No problem with guarding his food bowl or the furniture or toys. Outside the two dogs were bosom buddies. It was only me when in the den, specifically. Lol. That problem was stopped by using food, another resource to get him over the resource of ME. LOL. "Oh, I guess she's not that great. I'll take this food and Jose` anytime, any day of the week." :D

    I totally utilize the doggie zen concept. So, using one resource to guide the training of resource guarding of something else….and combining the training that to get something they want by “not†getting what they want first, has proven very successful. Yes, the timing needs to be good.

    There was one dog I was hired to work through some problems with when I was back in Idaho. That little dog was resource guarding his owner. When I got there to her house, I couldn’t even get too close or he’d snarl and lean away from her lap in an attempt to bite me. He was not a resource guarder of food whatsoever…just his “Mom.†I used chicken pieces to teach him that I wasn’t a threat to him…that I wasn’t going to keep him from his owner. I got so I could sit down next to her on the couch, pat her on her shoulder (something that he would have bitten me for before) and then we moved onto borrowing neighbors and other family members whom he had issues with too, of course. That is another example where the use of the resource of food was a viable tool in getting him over his resource guarding of his owner.

    Another dog I was called in to help was biting certain people when they came to the owner’s house. This was a big yellow mutt. Again…food was put in a coffee can outside on the porch for willing friends to help us with this dog. He was kept on a leash and brought outside. Anyhow, without going into details, this dog too, stopped biting people when they came over to visit. Of course, I emphasized that this dog must always be managed with care and not ever think that he is cured, just that the behavior is under control and they should not let their guard up on this issue…ever. But yeah…he hasn’t bitten anyone so far since then that I know of.

    I find that taking the resource away is partially effective. In the example of guarding their owner, if the owner gets up and walks away, it shows the dog that his behavior causes the valued thing to go away. If the dog is guarding a toy, the toy could be taken away in a safe manner to the owner. But taking things or making the resource go away can cause some stress at the same time which can make the process go slower because they can‘t learn as well when they‘re stressed out. So, I have found in my years of working with dogs, that if you actively teach by using another resource to distract and reward, while showing them that they get something good by giving up something else that’s good temporarily, it seems to drive home the point more solidly, I think. The bulk of my business has been made up of treating dogs with various kinds of aggression. Yes, there are incidences or particular dogs that this will be ineffective and sometimes detrimental. But I have found that to be less, not more common.

    There was another dog…a Pit bull type that bit select people also. He was sweet as honey to me. I could hardly believe he was biting some friends of their 20 year old. I worked with him a little bit, but they didn’t have me come for long enough and they put the dog down, as they didn’t feel they could manage him with a muzzle or anything. I don’t blame them. I wouldn’t like to live like that either. And that dog was so seemingly random with his behavior.

    When a dog is lashing out because he is guarding his owner, a toy, a couch or a room and one brings food into the picture, I have found that it is a good interrupter of their train of thought...or the road they're going down for a second... and at the same time, they can associate it with the person or dog they're guarding against, as a non-threat. Now, you can do this without food if they're guarding some other kind of resource. To get what it is they're guarding by not getting it first is the heart of the concept. But adding food seems to really drive home the point, I have found. Yes, you have to be careful with timing and beat them to it. Start dishing it out before they "go off." Set up situations to prevent them from "going off."


    I'd ask myself what it is you want to teach the dog. To not feel threatened by the presence of so and so when there's a valuable resource close by, right. What happens to the dog when a perceived threat is near the valued thing? Well....good things happen and the valued thing doesn't go away. That is...when the dog isn't "going nutso." But you have to beat him to the punch with the good things. Conversely, if your timing is bad and the dog has those extra seconds to "go snarky," and you haven't set up the situation to help prevent him from going snarky, then it's too late. You have to leave the room, take the good thing (you) away from the dog... with no positive reinforcer. It's effective, but not as effective imo as being able to actively load him up with PR and positive associations between threat and something he likes. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2012
  11. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Ok... no one's saying it doesn't work with certain dogs. No one is doubting that you've used it successfully. I'm glad you have. I've worked resource guarding with dogs and food too - professionally.

    But I do entirely doubt that you could use it with my bitch when the mere presence of food amps her up around other dogs. I've said before that your timing does not matter. You can't "reward her before she amps up". Well, ok, you can - once. Then once food becomes a part of the picture she's now guarding you AND the food. That's it. It just doesn't matter how good you think your timing is. If she thinks there's a chance that food is in the picture, she's totally over aroused. Associating the approach of other dogs with food would make my dog go, "Other dogs are coming, time to guard my food!" It's nice if it doesn't work this way for the dog but sometimes it does. Whether or not you want to believe me isn't really my concern, I guess.
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Oh, I believe you. I know what you mean and I wouldn't want you to think I don't. You should see Toker, my son's dog. She is one of the most intense dogs I've ever seen....about everything, especially food. So maybe you've seen dogs that are really berserk. This just comes out when food is around and there have even been a couple of incidences where she appeared to be guarding my son from the other dogs, not humans. But those were very infrequent and we again, used food in their presence to show her that the other dogs near by was a good thing that didn't make my son go away and in fact, brought on some goodies. The goodies came BECAUSE the other dogs were around. (so she thought) So there was no need to guard food or my son.

    How much distance between your bitch and other dogs does it take to reduce her arousal level around a more boring piece of food? Have you ever tried conditioning her to their presence at a great distance? I'm sure it could be mellowed down some. I wouldn't like to live with that. I think I'd have to lock the dogs up separately any time food was in the picture. So, you mean you can't cook dinner with them together in the room or have a picnic? LOL. That sounds insane. My guess is that it could be calmed down a few notches.
     
  13. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    No, we live quite normally thank you, as she doesn't behave that way with dogs in the home.

    Around kibble (boring), for her to have no nasty intentions, strange dogs should be about 15-20ft, although it depends on a lot. Namely her arousal level in the first place. If she's already eyeing an approaching dog, tossing food at her makes her gobble urgently it down while she stares at them (clearly raises her arousal level). At what point will she actually snap at the other dog? They have to be pretty in her face.

    ETA: Please keep in mind that I show this dog and take her to training to clubs without issue unless somebody's dog gets right up in her face. She's a hard ass but in no way a pyscho. Just not a Golden Retriever, lol.
     
  14. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I have the same kind of bitch Emily has who resource guards and adding food to the picture causes the same issues. My bitch guards her space, me and food. She's guarded other resources too - sleeping spots, toys or stuff she has possession of...even water bowls. Some of the worst issues I had with her involved dogs getting loose at class and running up on her while I had food because there were three "to be guarded things" in play - me, her space and food. For dogs like that, the more "things to be guarded" you add, the more intense the guarding becomes. For such dogs, what Emily is suggesting is IME a very good approach.
     
  15. Red.Apricot

    Red.Apricot Active Member

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    Zoey, my dad's puppy, had human resource (hrr) guarding issues for a while, trying to keep the older shepherds away from her person, and adding food made it worse; there was more to guard. He ended up just dumping her off his lap or ignoring her when she started up. Of course, she was 16 weeks old, and doing it for attention, so she figured it out pretty quick.

    Elsie, weirdly, doesn't guard her food against strange dogs at all, but won't let dogs she knows near her when she's eating a meal. Treats are fine, she has no problem with them getting treats, kongs or bones. Just her food dish, just dogs she already knows.
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Hmmm...I wonder why it's worked for me. Maybe the dogs I've worked with haven't been as wildly intense as the dogs you have worked with. I dunno. Toker is pretty amped up but doggie zen seems to work with her. Professionally, I've worked with a few that were pretty bad but maybe not as difficult as the ones you mention. They just learned that to get what they want, certain things have to happen and certain things must not happen.
     
  17. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    This describes Mu exactly. As soon as I add food into the picture I am a DOUBLE resource. If we're in class we have three resources, me, the space, and the food like Aleron mentioned. She does have an awesome mat cue, I'll work on ramping that up for at home. I think a crate will work better at my parent's house tho - I've been putting off getting crate games but I think it's time. Max can't get to her in a crate and since he thinks the banshee screams are a giant game there's no way he'd respect her space on a mat lol.

    Yeah she gives the side eye for a specific amount of time (depending on how fed up she is) and then launches at them. You have no idea how relieved I am that not just my dogs acts this way. :rofl1:

    Dober - I have tried adding food into it. It just doesn't work for Mu. She's way too intense and she already doesn't like dogs in her personal space. I think that tactic would work on either Murphy or Tipper - but I don't have this problem with them. :(
     
  18. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    LOL they're called herding breed bitches ;)

    Really though, it's not uncommon for herding breed bitches to be this way. Not saying they all are of course or that they are all as intense about it. But having a bitch of many of the herding breeds who has strong genetic tendencies towards being guardy about and/or intolerant of other dogs getting into their space/near their person/near their stuff (or hey looking at their stuff or something that could at some point become their stuff) is not really unusual.
     
  19. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I've only had one herding breed; German Shepherds, but they've all been males. And my Doberman, I might call a herding breed even if he was really in the "working" group. He had very strong herding instincts, seeing as how lots of herding breeds went into their make-up. But anyhow, he wasn't overly guardy. And professionally, I've worked with a lot of dogs with resource guarding issues and most of them calmed down, got distracted with food, not the other way around. It was as if they had their brains re-wired...new circuits installed. lol.

    I am very lucky to have dogs that get along so well. Chulita will give a little snarl if she thinks she's going to be stepped on when she's on the couch and Jose` gets up there. But I don't think she worries about losing her spot or anything. One little snark and he moves out of the way. No more said. lol. And he is such a softie. He would never dream of speaking against Miss Diva.

    Well Taq...I hope whatever you do will work out and stop this problem. Best of luck to you!:)
     
  20. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    Keeva and Quinn must be sistas from another mista!
     

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