German Shepherd through the years

Aleron · Mar 30, 2012

I don't know. There are health issues in every breed and often, they don't seem so obvious until you get involved with them. Sometimes not until after you've bred some litters and learned everything you didn't know. The Belgian breeds tend to live longer and remain structurally healthier into old age for sure. They have a fairly low incidence of HD and ED, even lower risk of crippling HD/ED. Allergies are fairly uncommon in them, as are ear problems and things like hot spots. But...there is a risk of immune issues in all varieties, they are just different from the immune issues GSDs get. One of my dogs developed atypical pannus, an autoimmune problem and since she developed it later she had already been bred.

The big issue is epilepsy though, which is thought to affect up to 20% of the population, also a risk in all varieties. Of course, statistically that is about the same as GSDs affected by HD but statistics don't really work that way. <knock on wood> I have never had a Belgian who seizured (had a GSD who did though and bad) and in 4 litters only had one puppy who did (litter sizes were 6 puppies, 8, 5 and 2). I've known litters in which 3-4+ puppies seizured. So in real life it doesn't work out to be 1 in 5 at all, like with HD a lot of other factors matter.

Work is being done to find a marker for epilepsy in the Belgians: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120323205337.htm

I had three GSDs, two American lines and one German showline. One of the American line dogs was put to sleep due to uncontrollable seizuring when he was just under 3 years old. Heartbreaking for sure

The other two lived long, healthy lives passing away at 13 and 14 years old. Of them, one did develop moderate arthritis in old age. None of their siblings lived as long as they did - many reached the 10-12 year mark though. I never xrayed either of them but they didn't seem to have HD or ED. The two Amline ones had issues eating poor quality food (corn based, store brand) but once switched to raw did much better. The Amline girl actually had multiple hot spots and ear infections already by time I got her at 15 months and once switched to raw food, never had them again. I didn't even have to be at all careful with what I gave her as treats past the first year - the problems just disappeared. She had to be switched to kibble the last 6 or 7 months or so before she passed away and she did fine on it. The other one never had an ear infection and only had a couple very small hot spots after we were eaten alive by biting bugs while camping in the Adirondaks. Her relatives had some health issues though. In a litter of 10 one seizured, one had HD and one had DM. Her mother developed EPI a year or so after having the puppies. AFAIK none of the puppies developed it.

release the hounds · Mar 30, 2012

this makes me realize how few pictures I have my current dogs

AdrianneIsabel · Mar 30, 2012

release the hounds said:

Sinful. :/

release the hounds · Mar 30, 2012

i know, but really I don't have a camera that will capture anything worth while. i have plenty where there just laying around or standing by a lake, but no working shots to speak of.

i guess i have pictures, but none that would really show any structure.

Lyzelle · Mar 30, 2012

I've only skimmed the thread. I looked at it yesterday, forgot to comment, come back and it's now 9 pages long! Lol.

But I really liked the earlier GSDs. You can see scrolling through they suddenly started looking really long-backed, rear started dropping down, less square, so on. It's not a look I prefer. DH noticed it too, "Oh god, they look like hotdog dogs". But that's okay. I don't claim to know history or conformation advantages of modern GSDs. And they are still beautiful dogs. It was just striking to see the sudden changes.

Kinda makes me think about the other breeds too. I'd do Siberian Huskies, but that's a whole 'nother issue dealing with kennel club vs true working type.

Now, to go back and read more....

Maliraptor · Mar 30, 2012

release the hounds said:

I have more working pics than structure pics also.

release the hounds · Mar 30, 2012

Maliraptor said:

I don't even have many working shots. I do of my old girl, but we had someone that came out a few times a year and took pictures for us

Now we don't and I don't have anything really of my two now.

I can't think of a single picture I have in my posession of either my girls doing anything other than posing for a shot, because movement and our camera don't get a long or a few short video clips made with the same small camera.

Equinox · Mar 30, 2012

AgilityPup said:

Good point!! I know if I ever knew of anyone looking for a Malinois, she'd be the very first person I'd turn to and recommend. :thumbup::thumbup: for her honesty, willingness to help everyone, and her ideals.

I don't see myself ever getting a Malinois but they are slowly growing on me, to the point where I am oohing and aahing whenever someone else gets one! Well, guess at least with Maliraptor's Mals I could hardly tell what they were in the beginning

As far as temperament, drives, and thresholds go I am all German Shepherd person. From everyone else's experience, I can see health issues scaring me away, although all of the GSDs I have known personally have been of good health (except minor allergy issues... knock on wood!!). My own has not been OFA'd because he does not do any type of training or competition and has shown me no reason for concern. Once I have more money saved I will be doing hips and elbows for peace of mind, and the bit of information for me and his breeder. I definitely recognize the rampant health problems within the breed, but I think my outlook and optimism (lack of pessimism? LOL) will only change if and when I am affected personally. While I hope that never happens, realistically I know it will.

For now all I can do is research for my next dog, and beg my current dog to live forever without incidence!

Maliraptor said:

Now something like THIS would really frustrate me to no end and most of all, completely break me. I couldn't handle that.

Someone also mentioned elbows and that reminded me of how often I see DJD elbows being brushed off as a nonissue. Not just Grade I, but up to DJD Grade III elbows, and in many circles it appears to be the norm to breed dogs with a genetic history of producing bad elbows, or dogs that have been tested to have DJD elbows themselves.

A friend of mine made the decision to not breed her very first and most successful home bred bitch because she had DJD Grade I elbows (though it was the norm and would have been encouraged by her mentor). No one in her circle would have batted an eye at that, but she recognized it as a problem and made a decision against doing so, despite having invested everything in that bitch of hers. It was astonishing for me to see how many people barely acknowledge deteriorating health in elbows.

Maliraptor · Mar 30, 2012

Mauno has 0/1 Elbows from Finland. They accept up to 2 for breeding, I believe.

I personally do not like films showing DJD. Degenerative Joint Disease. To me, I don't think that one picture in time will show this. UAP, FCP, etc, YES! And don't breed those dogs! But saying that a joint has deteriorated from one film?

They did a study (will look for link but might not be in English) with MRIs on elbows in Finland, and discovered that there was no difference with the MRI between grade 0 and 1 and some 2. It was decided that the MRI was the best way to evaluate elbow health, but that it could not be done because of the cost factor, so they would stick to x-rays. Ok it was in Belgian Malinois only, the study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19697600

In either case, elbows can be very controversial. However the SV is now requiring elbow films for Koers in Germany. Which is good!

Equinox said:

NO ONE needs a Malinois lol. Ok not true, but... those on the board who have Mals will realize and know they are almost a full time job sometimes. A WONDERFUL job, true, but boy right now Raptor is throwing a temper tantrum because it is time to go track.

But I do have one that I placed with a fellow club member coming back because he quit sport. So expect more Pictures...for those of you that know me, it's Draco Jr!

bitme · Mar 30, 2012

Here is a running video of my 3yr old, I can see a wee bit of slope in his back too :yikes:
http://youtu.be/8ZvQpRj-6tA

Equinox · Mar 30, 2012

In that case, what does it mean if there is a line of dogs all consistently showing to have and producing dogs with DJD Grade I, II, and III elbows? It's no secret I can't even pick out an x-ray showing dysplasia if it hit me on the head, forget anything else... but from what my friend said, it seemed as if in this particular case the elbows were an issue within the lines, but were not being treated as such because "elbows aren't as big of a deal as hips are". Although if they believe that to be the case, I have no idea why they test elbows anyway

I'm definitely not someone who poopoos breeders because they do not test for everything on the face of the earth... like I said, the breeders I've been following generally only test for hips, maybe OFA elbows, too. None use the DM test for their breeding stock. In an ideal world, I'd like to at least see test results, but I'm not put off that it isn't the case. But it IS gratifying to see that these health issues are gaining more recognition and there are breeders making an effort to contribute to the research being done and the steps being taken to improve overall health.

The whole ordeal with elbows just surprise and confuse me. Is there any reason why breeders would choose to use the films diagnosing DJD over the other options you've listed? Interesting thing, though, that the only breeders with dogs diagnosed to have DJD in the elbows are the same ones who do not use the results anyway.

Equinox · Mar 30, 2012

Maliraptor said:

I remember that puppy!! A shame the guy you sold him to quit, but whoooo for grown up puppy pictures!

bitme said:

Gnash long bite photos and videos are such a favorite! Never fails to impress

Maliraptor · Mar 30, 2012

Equinox said:

I'm not talking II and III, and I'm not really even talking I. I was discussing a different grading scheme from a different country, not OFA.

Dogs most certainly can produce bad joint conformation and it (or the propensity to develop it) can be genetic. No arguing there.

Maliraptor · Mar 30, 2012

Equinox said:

I didn't sell him.

It's why he is coming back to me. I'm very willing to forgo payment for a dog in order to keep him in my name and owned by me.

I love Gnash's SchH3 routine, that was nice to watch.

Maliraptor · Mar 30, 2012

Equinox said:

Sorry I missed half of this. The first paragraph- let's hope it keeps up, it can only be to the advantage of the breed.

Yes, there is. Films of elbows run about $100. MRIs (in this area at least) start at $2500.

You'd be surprised. Remember OFA is not an open registry. Some of the "didn't tests" are actually "failed, but not shared"

Aleron · Mar 30, 2012

Equinox said:

I have never heard anyone say "elbows aren't as big of a deal as hips". I have heard of a lot of controversy over OFA's DJD I elbows though. Often the issues seems to be that OFA is assigning that rating to dogs who other specialists find to have normal xrays. I actually have heard of a dog who had DJD I elbows which were looked over by multiple orthopedic specialists and found to be normal. When the dog died as an old dog a necropsy was done and one thing that was looked at was the elbows, which at that time also appeared normal. That dog was a GSD FWIW. So not everyone who uses a DJD I dog does so because they don't care about elbows, there seems to be some debate about if OFA elbow ratings are actually accurate.

Of course, one could debate that about their hip ratings too. I have known dogs who's x-rays were resubmitted multiple times and received different ratings. There are apparently vets people in some breeds use who "specialize" in getting passing OFA xrays on dogs who had failed previously. Some dogs certainly come back with different ratings than what was expected when the films were taken. Still, there does seem to be more inconsistency with the elbows overall - specifically the DJD I.

This is a very interesting and detailed article about the OFA elbow controversy. It's RR oriented but very informative: http://www.ridgebackregister.com/images/RR_11Sp_Elbow_Debate_singles.pdf

Equinox · Mar 30, 2012

Awesome, thanks for the explanation.

stafinois · Mar 30, 2012

A friend that bred Labs had one of her males pass OFA elbows at 24 months. After he was bred, he started limping. His elbows were bad enough that they required surgery. Most of his pups have turned out to have bad elbows as well.

Red Chrome · Mar 30, 2012

Breeding is a crap shoot. I think that Health testing gives you a baseline to go off of and the best you can do. But lets face it, sometimes things happen and issues crop up after certifications. I do also think that some DJDs listed in OFA CAN be the the result of an injury and not necessarily genetic joint deformations. My own boys sire had unilateral DJD in the elbow according to OFA, however he was imported at the age of 6 and injured before the rads were done. He never showed a sign of an elbow problem and never produced one. Wrong of them to use him as a stud? Maybe, but when things can be definitively traced back to an injury, I am more forgiving of using a dog for breeding.

I will say that this thread has been interesting. My own GSD has lines that are typically called "hip improvers" by some people. They have good hips and statistically produce dogs that have good or better hips. But again that is going off of OFA rads and certifications.

As far as my dog's individual conformation, he has some slight issues but they are minor. Here is a picture of him stacked.

Here he is working...He is a West German Working line dog with a nit of Czech thrown in way back.

Max who is a full Czech bitch. IMHO, the Czech dogs have a certain head type that makes them more easily recognized by other GSD people.

CharlieDog · Mar 30, 2012

Czech dogs do have a particular look I think. I think also the majority of them seem to be that black or grey "wolf" sable. Very intimidating in my opinion too lol.

And holy crap Judges teeth are huge! Lol

Also, as far as his conformation, it could be how he is stacked, but his shoulders look a bit upright to me. And could be the collar or the tilt of his head but something about his neck/ front looks a bit short almost?

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