German Shepherd Breeders- west coast

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by skittledoo, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    you can't argue with the chemicals in brains, but to try and take a stab at answering again it comes down to what are you breeding for. A good GSD is good mostly because a breeder looked at everything that makes a GSD and bred for it.

    Those types of dogs and breeders are far different than the breeders that breed them because they look cute, are snugglers, are oversized, undersized, "just pets" because they have papers or are black and red. When you start not looking to put all the ingredients in the pot, and more than that, STRIVING to make sure all the ingredients are in the pot, you get less and less until you no longer have anything that resembles what once was except similar in looks.

    In the end I don't care a lot. I do, but as long as people get a dog they like and take care of it for the duration of its life, that's good enough for me. It still doesn't mean I find it odd people really want something they really don't want. I just can't wrap my head around someone wanting a herding working type dog, but they don't want any of the traits that make them that kind of dog.

    I want a cheeseburger, hold the cheese and hamburger please, and can you wrap it with lettuce instead of a bun? MMMM that sounds like a tasty cheeseburger :)
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Holla.
     
  3. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    I was also thinking of breeds like Shiba Inu, who's original function was to go out and kill animals for its owner to eat. In order to do that the dogs needed to be independent and not paying attention to its owner. As a result they were aloof, not focused on people and really don't care if people are around them. So they don't really lend them selves to be trained, or handled, they are not obedient, or easily led. And while they could easily do many dog sports, they don't care enough about pleasing a person to listen to you to do it. So should we change the breeds temperament to make them more handler focused so they could do dog sports?
     
  4. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I'd see it more like... I want a hamburger, but maybe I'll have a turkey burger.

    Some people want pet GSDs and others don't, but no one owns the copyright to them so I guess people should feel free to keep banging their head against the wall of Dogs Other People Breed that I Don't Like for all it will change the taste of mustard.
     
  5. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    so should breed standards exist? if yes, should they matter? if not then how will people identify with the dogs they so desperately want they don't really want?

    Why would people want GSD's that don't have the traits that make them a GSD if there were no breeds? Would they still want it?

    I bet more often than not the answer would be NO because they want what they name GSD brings with it, without having what makes it so.

    At least they had the decency to call it turkey burger and didn't try and convince me that it was still hamburger :)
     
  6. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Oh that's easy people on the internet will tell them what they want. :p
     
  7. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    That is absolutely true in some breeds. The modern working Mals have been bred excel in bitesports that came about long after the breed originated as a protective herding dog. Most Mal people don't seem to know or care anything about their dog's herding instinct, some even seem to look down on Mals who herd as "not real work" or brag about how poorly their dogs did at herding. Sure they can still do protection work but that was just one aspect of the breed's original purpose which included herding, carting and whatever else their poor owners could train one dog to do so they didn't have to pay to keep different dogs for different jobs. Breeding for extreme traits that look really cool in competition has changed the breed. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Belgian farmers of a hundred years ago would not have tolerated a farm dog who redirected on them, was bad with their children or who easily got so aroused they couldn't think. To some (but not all), those are all acceptable traits in the breed in modern times. But it seems acceptable to many that the job for Mals has shifted and changed with time, interests and needs.

    Brittanys are another good example of how breeding for working competitions has changed a breed. In field trials, "running big" is highly desirable. This means that your dog goes way, way far away from you to find birds. The dogs are allowed to wear GPS collars because they quickly and easily get so far away from you risk not being able to find them. They are followed on horseback because you would never see them on foot. I some how doubt that the original people using the breed for hunting were tracking them on GPS units ;) Some lines of Brittanys are bred for "foot hunters" (and I think the French Brittanys also hunt closer) but those dogs don't do well in the field trials. So yes, it's really cool that ability has been preserved in that breed because having a DC is so desirable, which they have more than any other breed. But breeding for what wins in field competitions certainly has changed the type of dogs they are.

    GSDs are different in a way but not in a way. The breed founder created Schutzhund to test their worthiness as breeding dogs, knowing that not all breeding dogs could be active working dogs. However, SchH and the dogs have surely changed over the past 100 years or so. I still think breeders that are following the SV standard and using SchH not as a sport but a way to test their dogs temperament are producing the dogs with the best working character. But there's all sorts of dogs being bred to the SV standard who's breeders aren't looking at SchH as a test of their dog's abilities and as either - just a title to get out of the way or as a test of breeding great competition dogs. Both of those approaches are counter to what the breed founder intended though as is all of the changes that have been made to turn SchH into more of a sport. But time changes, interests change and needs change.

    A friend of mine is hoping to get a GSD puppy that is being bred for agility. You can say up and down how they should be getting this or that but they want an agility dog above all else. And they want a GSD and there happens to be someone who is breeding GSDs for that purpose from dogs proven for that purpose.

    I guess my question is....why is it ok to change SchH to be more sport-like then breed dogs to excel in that sport, to develop working Mals around protection sports, to breed Brittanys to be flashy field trial dogs but it's not ok, in our modern world to breed dogs who are good pets for pet owners? Don't kid yourself, none of these examples are remaining true to the breed's "original purpose" or breeding them "like they did in the old days". It's impossible to do so, even with people who mean well and care about preserving working traits because...time changes, interests change and needs change.


    ITA! Honestly, I think it comes down to "I don't like this so there must be something legitimately wrong with it".

    Also I'm not suggesting people looking for pet GSDs just go to the local grocery store and call someone who put a flyer up for $300 puppies. Those puppies may or may not be good pets. I'm simply suggesting going to a knowledgeable show breeder who is breeding for a more easy pet type dog and buying a pet quality puppy from them. Two very, very different things.

    :rofl1:
     
  8. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I don't think it is OK. I try to allude to that every time i mention people paying lip service to a "standard" while they breed for everything but the standard.

    As for herding, I'd love it. I don't know much about Mal's and herding other than they came from a lot of the same places GSD's did, so I'm going to assume their herding style should be similar. Here in the US there are practically zero avenues to do HGH style herding, which is very different than what is mostly available here.

    I know of only one place that does it, and they have a club of like 3 members. They're 1000 miles away from me, maybe not that far, but might as well be. I don't have anywhere within a 5 hour drive one way to find HGH style herding. I wish I had that opportunity, I'd love to do it. But i'm not about to get sheep and teach myself. I'm not that smart :) If I had to reinvent the wheel and teach myself I think I'd end up broke and frustrated.

    That said, using SchH as a actual breed test in my mind also tests the same things you need for a good herding dog. The traits are the same, and transfer easily back and forth. But I agree 100% that there are many many breeders paying lip service to the standard and using it as a hoop to jump so they can breed, rather than earning a title by being pressured and tested and pushed to earn and prove itself.
     
  9. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Yes it is very difficult to find herding that is suitable for non-BCs and people unfamiliar with pushy, upright herders can cause a lot of problems trying to work them.

    For me and what I want...I would go to a breeder using SchH as a temperament test for their dogs and breeding to the SV standard. I'm not really a fan of most pet type GSDs and the Amline show dogs are very unlikely to suit what I want to do with my dogs. The German showlines, it depends...I think there's still come nice ones out there and there's people on the FB group I'm on who do value working ability in their GSLs . But I just feel like I'm most likely to get what I want from a good working line breeder, in looks and in temperament. So me personally...I value the working character of the breed, even though I'm not interested in protection work/sports. I look at how working Mals are bred (often with no health testing and no thoughts about the standard) it makes me appreciate how important it is to have a system in place even when breeding working dogs to truly evaluate breeding dogs and ensure that the breed as a whole is being preserved. Not that the system is perfect or infallible or that everyone in the US chooses to follow it. But I still think there's a lot of value in breeding to the SV requirements.

    But I also realize GSDs are super popular pet dogs and that is unlikely to change any time soon. That's certainly something that has changed from when they originated. And we can agree that most of those people don't actually want a working type GSD. They're still going to get a GSD though and it would be better for them and the dog if the dog was an easier, less intense version of the breed. It make seem....silly to us, as dog people but it is what it is. Not all pet bred dogs fit that requirement for sure. Actually the scariest dog I've ever been around was a pet bred GSD who was extremely, dangerously and aggressive by 8 months old. Not one bit fear related either. But that's a chance you take when you get a cheap puppy from a newspaper ad and despite the "breeder" telling you the sire is highly aggressive, you buy the puppy as a family pet with your 6 or whatever kids.
     
  10. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Romy does your friend have Fairway GSDs in OR? If so, another GSD friend of mine just recommended them highly for someone looking for a nice pet GSD :)
     
  11. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    Sorry, have not read the rest of the posts but I will be happy to put in a good word for Fairway German Shepherds and their partner Flight of Fancy German Shepherds. I got to speak to both breeders and spend a few hours with one of their males, Sumo, at a show and he was a very lovely, stable tempered dog. Had a great talk with the breeders - I had been keeping tabs on Fairway for the last few years ever since a friend brought them to my attention. They are usually my go to recommendation for anyone who wants a show line GSD in Oregon. They have a mix of American and German show lines.

    Okay, was skimming and this made me laugh out loud :rofl1:
     
  12. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Her kennel name is Anarak, but interestingly she is also in Oregon City.

    That would be two good potential breeders for Skittle's sister to visit in the same city if she's willing to travel to Oregon to meet the dogs. :) Ann is also the secretary of the local GSD club so she could probably suggest others in the area that are a potential good fit too.
     
  13. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    I know this is off-topic in a sense, but APBTs were never bred for dog aggression. I'm not sure why people believe it, and it grates on my nerves that it gets repeated as "truth". Dog aggression was just a side affect of what they were bred to do. But in truth, history is full of pit-bred APBTs that had no problems being around other dogs when not training or being matched.

    And put me in the camp that believes plenty of "pet" dogs can be found from litters of well-bred working dogs. I don't believe in breeding pretty dogs with nice temperaments solely to produce pets.

    I would hate to see breeds go extinct, but I'd rather that than see them be ruined. By breeding away from all the traits that defined the dog in the first place, then I feel you no longer have that breed, but instead are creating a new one.

    And I, too, feel pet breeders are ruining breeds. It was said that no surplus of pet labs is affecting finding field dogs, but it's those very same pet Labs that have introduced unstable temperaments and poor musculoskeletal structure into the breed. And as an APBT owner, I stand firm in my belief that those breeding for big headed stocky pets are responsible for the downfall (in addition to the irresponsible owners owning them). Because now hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia can easily be found. Dogs with improper, if not downright unstable, temperaments are also easily found. What's concerning me a lot these days, and something seen across all breeds, is the rate of fear aggression and nerve-bag dogs. And GSDs? In my area, I wouldn't touch them with your arm, much less mine. But what was worse than the satanic temperaments, is having to love on a sweet one while you have no choice but to kill it because it's hips are so bad that it can no longer even get up and walk...and it hasn't even seen it's 2nd birthday. I can promise you those dogs didn't come from the reputable breeders upholding the breed's standards.

    It seems like I'm in the minority these days, but I just cannot fathom promoting breeding a breed away from its standards, which don't appeal to me, all because I want to own one because I love it's physical looks. No breed is worth ruining for selfishness. I have no problem admiring dogs from afar. Sure, I may have a "I really want one!" pang, but I'm not going to support someone who breeds away from the very traits that define such breed in order to own a shell of a dog.
     
  14. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    This.
     
  15. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    Ok, but is breeding away from dog aggressiveness not better? It may have been a side effect of their original breeding, it was defiantly exploited and bred towards later on, an evolution of the breed fwiw, and now it's being bred away from, thus changing the breed from what it was originally.

    Now I do not agree with breeding away from the physical standard, and dislike greatly what has become of several breeds by breeding strictly for looks alone. I would personally love it for all dogs to have titles in working and conformation before being bred. But most people just want that great family pet who is easy to live with and undemanding, like it or not for breeds today to remain viable what you call "pet breeders" are necessary. Ideally these pet breeders would be doing conformation and working trials of some sort, as well as health testing, just as you said with working breeders having dogs that don't have enough drive, pet breeders have dogs with more drive then an average home wants.
     
  16. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    It's a false dichotomy to say that dogs are either being bred healthy and with stable temperaments to standard, or unhealthy nerve-bags as pets out of standard.

    It's so bizarrely unnatural to me to cling to standards as if they came down the mountain with Moses and nothing can ever change or the breed is "ruined." And I'll never understand how Jane Breeder's pet GSDs affect Joe Breeder's working GSDs if never the twain shall meet. Standards are only standards because some regular Janes and Joes with all their personal biases and superstitions said so, and more people felt one way than another, and their opinions may or may not have had any basis in reality.

    Change and adaptation are what dogs are all about, it's how they came to be and how we ended up with all the breeds and types we have. It's not natural for an organism to adhere to a strict arbitrary standard forever in response to changes in environment or selection pressures.

    The more I see these arguments the more I think it would be best for dogs if we just turned them all loose and left them alone on an island for 50 years, then started over with what came out of it.
     
  17. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    I'm on my phone, so this won't be as long or clear as I normally would type, but I'm not understanding your logic.

    1.) You would rather see a breed die out than change (become "ruined"), but then you say change is like the breed dying out as the breed becomes an entirely new breed.
    So either way the original breed is gone. Why do you prefer that entire line of dogs be eradicated (removed from the breeding population) versus being used to create a new breed? (Or same "breed", but so far different it doesn't really matter.)

    I really fail to understand why breeds are so...idolized. What does it matter what the name of the breed is, so long as it is a dog that is well balanced both structurally and mentally and is healthy, being produced by a breeder who stands behind his dogs, and fits the niche you need?

    2.) You say pet bred dogs are ruining breeds. I disagree. Irresponsible breeding is ruining breeds. If I have a Labrador that is the epitome of the standard and I only breed with other Labrador that are the epitome of the standard, poorly structured, I'll tempered, hip dysplasic Labrador X isn't going to influence my lines because I don't use him or any of his relatives in my breeding practices. They only way Labrador X would be a problem is if I allow him to reproduce with my dogs, and if I am a responsible breeder, then that doesn't happen.

    I also don't think dogs bred solely for pets are necessarily poorly bred dogs. However, my definition of a well bred dog is one that comes from health tested/healthy lines, is structurally sound, and has a stable temperament. Just because you are breeding for a companion does not mean you have any excuse to breed unhealthy, unstable dogs. So "pet bred" dogs aren't affecting things negatively.. irresponsible breeding is.

    Just IMO, of course.
     
  18. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    Sass, I agree that there are dogs produced that cross over to the "other side" whether produced by bad breeders or good ones. However, for the sake of my fingers typing on my phone, I didn't go into all that. RTH did that, so I just let it be.

    However, I don't believe someone could sit and put the blame on reputable breeders for the high number of dogs with temperament and physical issues. It's rare that I see a true quality APBT come from a byb, and it's rare that I've seen a poor tempered musculoskeletal wreck of an APBT from a good breeder.

    Honestly, look at all the dogs that have been bred to be "pets". Look at the modern day Bulldog and Pug. Look at the Neo Mastiff and the Shar Pei. Look at the cringe-worthy "pit bulls" being peddled as "pets" (think American Bully).

    I want someone to show me ONE BREED where breeding strictly for pet status has maintained the breed's original standards (or, as some even claim, improved upon them).

    This issue isn't a dog one, as the same is going on in the horse world. You've never seen a group so passionate as the working QH people are against the halter QH people. Look at what being bred for pretty-in-a-halter has done to those horses.
     
  19. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    My replies in red.
     
  20. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Well my whole point was kind of that I don't understand why breed standards are treated like holy everlasting texts from on high instead of some historical people's opinions (which may or may not be well-informed or ill-informed), sooooo.... not gonna be me.
     

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