German Shepherd Breeders- west coast

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by skittledoo, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    I think the thought (at least mine) here is that it's one thing to rescue/adopt a pet dog that is typically a working dog - I adopted a pit bull that certainly couldn't work from a shelter a few years ago... But it's another thing entirely to be breeding them and supporting breeders who are doing nothing for the breed. kwim?

    If I were to go out and BUY an APBT or Am Staff some day like I probably will... I would be looking for a working/performance breeder above all else, even if they show as well.

    I bought a working border collie who's lines will never be shown.

    I bought a split working line/show line GSD who's parents are both worked and who has the drive and nerve to do the same.

    But sure, I adopted a pet bully breed from the shelter. I adopted a pet rat terrier years ago as well.
     
  2. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yep, I get that. ETA: Nvm, the less said that better.

    Doesn't change the fact she enjoys the dog and it's a nice dog, though. ;)
     
  3. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I chose to keep a puppy I saved from what would/could have been a horrible life. And your...."" around pit bull and the breed lead me to read that as snarky, rude and bitchy.

    I never said that pet bred dogs can't be good ambassadors, some are. I said I don't agree with breeding SOLELY for pet dogs. And I don't. I placed 2 pet puppies out of our last litter......but they wete from a purpose filled breeding to produce sport and working dogs. 2 are in working homes being raised for dual purpose and detection. But...there were 2 nice pet puppies. Breeding for sport still produced pet puppies.


    I'm interested to know your feelings on pet bred Malinois? People breeding watered down Mals for pets.
     
  4. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Why are "accidental" pet puppies (eg pet puppies out of a working/sport litter) ok to exist but purpose bred pet puppies not? Either way, they're out of standard. Either way, the pet owner has the same dog out there misrepresenting the breed.

    I'm not trying to be snarky, I just honestly can't dig it. Either these out of standard imposters shouldn't exist and misrepresent the breed at all, or it's ok to exist and misrepresent the breed? Surely JQP can't tell the different between where any individual pet GSD came from originally? How does what kind of GSD one person has hurt what kind of GSD another person has, if both are still represented in a breed that already has so many different lines that it's almost impossible to discuss it as one breed, anyway?

    ETA: Honestly I see both sides, but I am also very uncomfortable at times with the near-deification of the almighty "standard" in dogs I see from some people (not accusing anyone here in particular of this, btw, just to nip THAT in the bud). I'm more of a "type" person, so maybe I'll just never get it.
     
  5. Sit Stay

    Sit Stay Not a Border Collie

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    I have a feeling I may regret posting this LOL, but if your sister likes the look of a GSD but wants a mellow pet type, has she considered a Shiloh Shepherd? I KNOW they're a whole other can of worms and controversial as well... but it would probably be quite easy to find what she's looking for in a Shiloh, perhaps even easier than trying to find a suitable puppy from a working breeder.

    I'm not sure if it's the norm of if I've just been lucky, but every Shiloh I've met has been friendly, stable, easy going, and (from the sounds of it) a perfect fit in a pet home. They've been super nice dogs, really. I'm not sure if health testing is very prevalent, as I've never looked into the breed, myself, but I know one owner did mention that her breeder health tested, including OFA hips.

    I'm going to run and hide now! :p
     
  6. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    You can hide in my bomb shelter with me. :p
     
  7. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    Because a responsible breeder would place puppies lacking the proper temperament on non breeding contracts and the traits wouldn't be passed on. But you aren't going to get working monsters in every litter. It just doesn't happen. On the other hand, the chances of getting a working quality dog out of two pets is much more slim.
     
  8. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I don't think I quite communicated what I was asking. Why is it ok for these dogs to accidentally exist, but not purposefully exist? Either way, they exist. And The Public is seeing them with their out of standard temperaments.

    It seems like there are two possible objections to breeding pet GSDs on purpose: 1. It is harmful to the breed for JQP to have a perception that these pet GSDs truly represent the breed or 2. Devotees of the historical working GSD temperament object on principal to the practice of breeding pet GSDs.

    #2, either someone feels that way or not, so there's not much point to discuss it. But for #1 to actually be a valid argument, then somehow the existence of pet puppies that are by-products of working breeding must be somehow substantively different from purposefully bred pet GSDs? Either way The Public is going to see them and think that's what a GSD is or can be, and if that's harmful to the breed, isn't it harmful wherever the puppies came from? That's what I'm having a hard time understanding. If the by-product pets aren't harmful to the public perception and therefore true character of the breed, then how are the purpose bred pets harmful? Like, I honestly am asking because I don't get it at all.

    Again, I'm more of a type person anyway, so it may not be possible for me to get it. It just seems like a very circular argument.
     
  9. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    I think because there are already enough pets out there. Want a pet? Get one from rescue or a pet quality pup from a responsible breeder. There are more than enough out there so that everybody could have the pet of their dreams.

    I have a very un-Malinois Malinois. He came from a breeder who focuses on softer sports. He's ridiculously social and quiet. I'm lucky to have a dog like him, but I do notice some of my non-residents savvy friends getting the idea that Malinois are silly goober dogs that love hugs. No, that's just Stan.
     
  10. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    Why not buy a dog from a byb instead of paying the shelter for it 3 hours later when it's dumped because the breeder can't keep it?

    It's all about what you're supporting, as far as I'm concerned.
     
  11. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    it's not about the right to exist to me. There are differences in GSD's. Without a doubt, test them, pressure them, live with them and you'll see that some dogs have a lot more "stuff" in them than rest.

    They may look similar, they may act similar, but when things really matter, they aren't all that similar. Most aren't even close.

    Breeders that genuinely are maintaining a standard breed a lot of amazing dogs, some very good dogs that don't fit the bill and once and while some crappers.

    Breeders that don't follow a standard, or say they do, but in words only tend to produce a lot of dogs that are substandard and once and a while they might have a good one. The differences between a workingline GSD and an American show shepherd are vast. I can't believe they're even of the same breed.

    One was bred to a working standard, the other was not. THe absolute very best ASL I've seen was barely average for a working line dog. Barely. That says something. Dogs bred with a standard in mind produce litters capable of everything. Leader dogs, service dogs, SAR dogs, patrol dogs, great companion dogs, everything. Dogs bred with no standard in mind produce a whole heck of a lot less.

    And if your standard is just to breed pets, then I get back to my earlier argument, it's sadly funny that people so badly want what they really don't want. A GSD is a working dog, or should be. If you don't want herding dog traits, don't breed herding dogs. Seems pretty simple
     
  12. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Except... the person who wants a pet GSD?

    I mean, really, if someone started calling their pet-bred GSD's "German Couch Potatoes" would that be ok? Because then they're not passing them off as GSDs, except... then they shouldn't do that because there's already enough breeds to choose from? But creating something like a silken windhound is ok?

    It's all legitimately very confusing to me. I honestly don't understand a lot of these arguments that pop up around what seems to be a core issue of "I like the breed(s) I like the way I like it/them and think no one should mess with them." Which honestly I think is perfectly acceptable even if I don't truly understand it, but then just say so.
     
  13. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    I personally would be happier if German Shepherds were purely working dogs... every "GSD" you saw had solid nerves, was protective, etc. Everything else would be a German Couch Potato.

    I used to feel strongly about it but in the end it seems like a semanitc argument.

    You want a dog that looks like a GSD and kinda acts like one, but mostly just does the lowkey dog thing? Gets excited when you come home, plays with the kids, does funny stuff, has a cute personality, isn't too demanding? Go get your dog from someone who breeds GSDs like that. It's the only way you're going to get the look and temperament you want. I'm not about to tell someone who is looking for a dog with those specifications that they should get a PWD instead, when there is someone out there breeding a dog to their specifications. That seems silly.

    I still don't like it much... the idealistic part of my brain is going " no no no those are GSD rip offs, they shouldn't exist!!1" but in the end I'd rather be pragmatic, and the cat's already out of the bag on this one. I back you 100% in keeping your Ibizianspithaubenkoffenguard Mastiffs under lock and key and only selling them to people interested in working dogs, but pet GSDs aren't going anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  14. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    But, you CAN get a pet GSD from rescue or a responsible breeder. Why not support one of those two places rather than a breeder who doesn't breed to standard?
     
  15. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Which gets back to my original confusion about WHY it's not ok to breed pet GSDs. See? It's completely circular. I am probably closer in my dog ownership to JQP than most people here, and from where I'm sitting it seems like all of the tangential arguments really go back to trying to shore up "don't mess with my GSDs." Which is totally fine, and if I loved any particular breed that way I might feel the same.

    But at the same time, I think it's totally unrealistic and sort of unfair. It's not a shock that people in modern American society want what they want and that appearance plays a role in their choices, and big dog shows like Westminster don't really do much to deter that IMO... there's really not much of a nod given to how these dogs' temperaments should be/are evaluated and the dogs to a lot of average dog owners' eye all act pretty much the same in the ring.

    And anyway, surely it's not a sin to prefer a specific appearance, since colors and other cosmetic features are specified as acceptable or unacceptable in so many breeds? Surely along the way to their creation certain breeds have a certain appearance because the original breeders liked a certain look as much as wanted the dog to perform a certain function. People are people.

    I don't know. I do and don't understand both sides, but at the end of the day I can't really fault someone for wanting something like a pet GSD. Why does anyone want what they want or like what they like. You can't argue with the chemicals in people's brains.
     
  16. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    That, completely.
     
  17. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    I agree.

    I have really lessened my opinion about the whole "purebred" dog thing. As long as people are breeding mentally and physically healthy dogs and is being ethical and responsible in their breeding practices (stands behind their pups, screens homes, etc., etc.)...if there is a niche for the dog being produced, then who am I to say to not produce that dog?
    That goes for pet dogs, show dogs, working dogs, sport dogs, etc., etc.

    I see nothing wrong with someone wanting a "pet" dog that looks a certain way, has certain behavior characteristics, and comes from health tested parents.
    Heck, that is why I have Abrams. I wanted a pet that looked a certain way, had certain behavioral characteristics, and comes from health tested lines. Now, the breeder I purchased him from also sells puppies for hunting companions and they do quite well, so she doesn't just have "pet" dogs to the strictest definition...but she is a breeder who focus is breeding dogs for companion purposes. The showing, and titling, and hunting is just for fun (as well as other reasons, such as seeing how her dogs line up to others, functionality, etc., etc.).

    Could I have just adopted a puppy from the shelter? Probably. But then I would have known nothing about its lineage, or health, or what its behavior was likely to be. And at this point in time in my life, I didn't want to gamble.
     
  18. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    They were saying that breeding away the working dog temperament was breeding out of standard. That basically every breeder not breeding working dogs are doing it wrong.

    What about breeds who's jobs no longer exist, and also don't perform well in dog sports? Should we just stop breeding them?
     
  19. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    What are general thoughts on German showline GSDs? Are they seen in the same way as American showlines?
     
  20. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    To steer this away from GSDs for a moment because hopefully people won't be so emotionally invested in the breed being discussed:

    ^^I wonder that about bull terriers. They were bred specifically for blood sports and as a gentleman's companion.

    A bull terrier isn't particularly agile in terms of being a good vermin hunting dog that can fit into crevices and stuff, and that's not what they're made for anyway.

    They could be good at tracking in theory, but again they're a very independent breed and it's not something they were ever bred for. It would be more of an individual dog type activity.

    Nope to herding. Nope to police type work. Maybe as detection dogs or SDs but those would be special individuals vs. something the breed as a whole is good at.

    I have seen them be good at agility, but their conformation limits their ability to be competitive at high levels with sporter bred mixes.

    So, what kind of work do you breed a breed for when that breed's work no longer exists/is illegal?

    People could start breeding them for tracking or agility. I don't see anything wrong with it, but by doing so you're changing the breed in a fundamental way. For breed preservationists, how do you reconcile that? How is one type of change superior to another?

    The way I see dog populations is that they're constantly in flux. We want to preserve things, and that's great. I do. I'm one of those people. I want my borzois to retain the ability to bring down a wolf even though it's illegal to hunt wolves with hounds anymore. I get wanting to preserve that.

    But at the same time, with different pressures the breed is going to change. I've seen it with people using lure coursing to test their borzoi's hunting ability. They want to be competitive and start selecting toward a dog that is smaller and lighter, and would make a great rabbit or fox coursing hound but could never dream of pinning an adult wolf to the ground and holding it there. It does make me kind of sad, but that's what it's becoming and really as long as the dogs are healthy and have good temperaments and there are enough homes that want them, is it really such a huge tragedy?

    I'm conflicted on it, I'll admit. I know what I breed for, and what I'll keep striving for. As long as other breeders are doing their parts with health and temperament I'll be content with that.
     

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