German Shepherd Breeders- west coast

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by skittledoo, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    My uncle was one of those 'not going to change his mind' people. He wanted a GSD, and that was that. So I started to suggest certain breeders, and he was put off by the price and said he couldn't pay more than $500 for a dog. :rolleyes: So whatever, he ended up going to an Amish farm in PA and getting his girl.

    Honestly, for the most part, she turned out great. I really love her. She's really amazing around all people and kids (which is what I was worried about as I had a HA GSD growing up)... IMO she's structurally a good dog, though I don't know a lot about that, to be honest. She DOES have some dog reactivity issues and he won't take her to the dog park anymore. But other than that, she's happy to chill around the house for days, but she can also really be active. My uncles girlfriend takes her running a lot, etc, and he plays fetch with her a lot outside. She's totally got that drive, she's not like a lazy couch potato, but she is just a really good pet. Easier than Jackson in that sense IMO. lol. Jackson gets very antsy with lack of stimulation, she's just really go with the flow.
     
  2. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Well I wouldn't expect most GSDs to be daycare/playgroup type dogs, regardless of lines.

    Going to a show breeder who health tests and breeds for show/pet is hardly " ruining the breed". It actually has very little impact on the breed as a whole and even less on the working population. I understand that in theory and historically, GSDs are "supposed to be" working dogs above all else. I understand the notion that only working GSDs should be bred, idealistic as that notion might be. Felt that way myself for a long time and don't disagree with the sentiment. I'm glad there's still breeders who work their GSDs and breed for correct character in them. But the fact is in modern times, more than anything else, the majority of GSDs are pets. There's thousands of responsible but average pet owners who want GSDs and don't want of need a dog that has the true working character of the breed. And there's not nearly enough working breeders to supply pet quality puppies to those homes anyway. Of show breeders for that matter.

    But there's pet type GSDs for pet owners like that. Are they going to be able to do well in IPO? Unlikely. And their owners will never care about that. And for the people that do...there's working line dogs. Everyone can have the type of GSD they want, need and like and it really has little affect on anyone else. You don't have to like or think show GSDs are "real GSDs" but there's plenty of show and pet people who have and love those dogs for what they are. And likely, those people wouldn't be all that happy with a working bred dog. So if everyone is happy with the dogs they have and choose and there's plenty of dogs to go around, what's the problem?
     
  3. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    :hail:

    Thank you. I was more than a little sad to see people saying that Maggie was ruining the breed by virtue of her existence, and that anybody going to her breeder (who health tests, does confo showing, and does some sports) is supporting the ruin of the breed.

    The two most absolute unstable GSDs I have ever met came from opposite ends of the spectrum in breeding. One was Tengu. She was BYB derived from American showlines. Honestly, she was 100% bombproof except for the separation anxiety. It was the most extreme separation anxiety I have ever seen in a dog, and may have had a lot more to do with the fact that she was found stray with a choke chain growing into her neck than her actual breeding.

    The other was my aunt's German working line import. She was imported by a local kennel that trains K9s and sells them. Dude got so frustrated with how afraid she was of every. little. thing. that he was going to put her down. My aunt got her for free and while she did a lot of good desensitizing Candy to normal everyday things, she was never a confident dog. She wouldn't hesitate to unload her bladder if things got too intense by her standards. Her parents both had SchIII and everything.

    ETA: Before fostering Tengu I had Anko, which the folks at the GSD rescue all identified as a DDR GSD. She was an adult when I got her from the shelter, but she was a good dog. She was super obedient and a great house dog.

    That said, she was still way too intense and needed way too much exercise for what Skittle's sister is looking for. I could see average Joe getting really frustrated with her pretty quickly. Hate to imagine what she was like as a puppy. lol
     
  4. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    To be fair, I didn't get the impression that anyone was claiming that buying from show breeders was ruining the breed? And I especially did not see anyone pointing to a little puppy and saying that she's ruining the breed by existing??

    There were two comments in the thread that said something about the influence on the breed as a whole. Both were in response to the idea of wanting and making the GSD breed fit into this mold of the lounge around the house, low drive, sweet companion pet dog. The show line breeders I respect may breed lower key GSDs as a result of their preferred type/lineage, but they still also see the breed as a working breed and do make an effort to preserve and seek that drive and good nerve. They have no intention of marketing or breeding the GSD as a "hang out and laze around all day" dog, and maybe the show line breeders/dogs mentioned here do... but if they don't, then I don't think the comments were referring to them. The criticism I read was for pet market breeders and those who want a GSD only in name and appearance and nothing else.

    So no, I didn't read anything that was anti-show line, and definitely not anti-particular fluffy puppy and her breeder lol. Sure, yes, I do agree with that criticism but at this point I also am not as upset by it as I used to be. I know what kind of dog I want and I know that there are many, many breeders producing that, and to me that will always be the ideal. But the lines of my choice are definitely not without their faults, and other people have their opinions and their preferences, and I guess that's that. As long as the breeders are responsible for their dogs, I generally won't complain.
     
  5. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I would say go to a shelter or get a CL rehome, but she wants a puppy.

    Out here, a LOT of the nicest GSDs I've met have been dogs pulled from the shelter. I mean they were awesome dogs, completely stable, confidant, just the right level of suspicion/aloofness with strangers, but lovebugs with the people in their "circle" and they were going to daycare with other dogs at least three to four times a week. I don't know what breeder these dogs came from (all three were incredibly structrally similar, down to all being bi-colors as well) and while I can't say I would go to this breeder (after all, if they DID all come from the same breeder (and I Really Really think they did) then they let at least three of their dogs end up in the shelter) I really liked the dogs produced by said hypothetical breeder. All three owners were active, and while none of them did bitesports with their dogs, they took them to the park, walked around festivals around town with them, and I really wanted to steal one of them. He was the best dog ever. Two years old, perfect size, pulled from the stupid kill shelter in ATL, and would have made the most FANTASTIC SD for me.

    I seriously wanted/want that dog lol. That was before I got Indy though. He was a better size for me than her. He probably had four inches on her height. He was quite tall for a GSD, but he wasn't weedy in the least.
     
  6. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    Where did anyone say that a breeder who shows and health tests is the one ruining the breed? Actually, I know for a fact that I specifically stated otherwise.
     
  7. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    And here again, lies the issue.

    If you don't want a GSD with the "true working character" then don't get a GSD. They should have it. If you want a herder that lays on the couch all day, then idk what to tell you. It's why they end up in daycare though. Because pet owners who have full time jobs and dont provide stimulation when they're home look for a different way of providing it. Its all well and good until you tell them that they can't come back anymore. The same reason you wouldn't expect them to be daycare type dogs is the same reason they wouldn't thrive in most pet homes sitting in the house all day.

    Working in a kennel as a breeders apprentice and trainer of these specific types of dogs, this type of client is my #1 source of income. Take a dog who is supposed to be active and then put it on a couch with the average pet owner who doesn't provide proper exercise and stimulation and what do you get? An out of control 80lb dog with a genetic tendency of showing either fear or aggression or both. Add that in with the incredibly high risk of getting a dog with crappy hips and elbows and then see how long that person really gets to enjoy their pet for. You don't see me recommending someone get a BYB pet line Malinois or Border Collie either. Just asking for trouble.

    I will never recommend a BYB pet line breeder to anyone. There are more than enough ethical breeders with pet quality puppies in every litter. These are the people who spend time and money to prove that the dog is even breed worthy to begin with, not the ones who just think they have a nice pet and breed their two dogs together. And if you don't care about that, they you should just buy from a pet store. The effect that it has on everyone else is that this breed now has such a dramatic split with a lack of solid health or stable temperament that people think this is ok. It's why the breed has gone completely down the toilet.
     
  8. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    Bi color GSDs are more often working lines than not. I have seen 1 ASL bicolor before though, and probably 30 working lines.
     
  9. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    I always think this idea that pet lines ruin breeds is kind of funny. I will say what I don't like is when poorly bred animals affect the breed's public image; that is unfortunate. However, the idea that pet or show lines somehow affect a breed's working population doesn't make sense to me. I get peed on by lots of nervy pet/show English Cockers at work, but that literally has no bearing on the fact the Ollie's father is out there kicking ass on pheasants. The working lines are unaffected by the show/pet dogs and readily available to those who know where to look.

    What affects a breed's working population IMO is whether or not there is still a demand for them as working dogs, first and foremost. And then second, of course, is the selection pressure put on them by breeders and keepers of said working lines.

    Pet lines... don't really have anything to do with that. People who want and buy pet line puppies aren't candidates for working line dogs, usually. Maybe it means they shouldn't get a GSD/Lab/APBT or whatever, but regardless or whether they do or don't, the population of WL animals isn't really affected because they were never going to get one in the first place. It was a pet bred dog or nothing. Better there be pet lines for them to seek rather than acquire an inappropriate dog or pressure WL breeders to water their dogs down.

    Labrador Retrievers are insanely popular and bred as pets more often than not. If any breed has an abundance of pet lines, it's Labs. Which makes it really hard to get a good bird dog... oh wait, no, it doesn't at all. There are still extremely strong field lines in the Lab despite an abundance of pet AND show lines. Because there is a demand for field line Labs and because the breeders take great care in producing them.

    I would never own a show line GSD and I can't say they're my idea of correct for the breed, but... The idea that someone else who does will somehow ruin or affect the breed's working population doesn't really make sense to me. I think the working community in the breed is best off focusing on their own backyards rather than pinning any perceived decline in the breed's working quality on people who want lazy pets. If what pet people and pet breeders do is affecting the quality of your working dogs, I'm confused as to how your breeding program is run.

    Let people buy lazy pets and continue to produce working animals for people who want working animals. It's probably better that way. When a breed has no split but a growing demand for pet dogs, you see more problems than not. People are dumb, they don't care how much you tell them not to, they think they want what they want.

    This is really interesting article by Retriever Man, I realize some may love or hate him but... he talks about why show lines aren't really a concern in breeds that still have strong working populations. Some breeds are basically "locked" as show lines, there are no lines outside of show lines. GSDs are not one of those breeds. http://retrieverman.net/2014/02/15/why-fat-labradors-in-dog-shows-are-low-hanging-fruit/ I know the old quote from vom Stephanitz as well as anybody and I know they should be a working dog always, but reality... well, it can bite you on the ass sometimes. lol

    All that being said, show line GSDs aren't necessarily lazy - we have a big AmLine boy whose owners got him from their son, who got rid of him when they had a baby because he was too much. No temperament issues, just too big and energetic. His current owner still finds him trying. He's actually very mild mannered, just... big and bouncy. So this woman needs to be aware that the dog is still likely going to be handful when young.
     
  10. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    =GatorDog;2349559]Where did anyone say that a breeder who shows and health tests is the one ruining the breed? Actually, I know for a fact that I specifically stated otherwise.[/QUOTE]

    I was responding to this:

    And the general "OMG working lines or NOTHING!!!" sort of response.

    Very true! I have known Amlines with all range of energy levels. This is why going to a breeder who is honest and knows their dogs and is good at matching people with puppies is a far better idea for Skittle's sister than getting a random puppy off of CL. And she might do better with a bitch, since the Amlines tend to be bigger, so the male scan easily be really large. My Amline boy was 28" and 95lbs, which was the "average size" in the ring at the time. Doesn't always hold true though - Lexi was 24" and so was her sire.

    Also...they're still GSDs. They're still prone to SSA/DA/DR, guardy behavior, being socially weird, etc, etc. Lexi was a bit DR on leash, although easily managed and she tended to view small dogs as prey. And of course her and Jora fought, although she got along really well with the other dogs and was always great with puppies born here.


    I'm afraid that isn't very realistic with a breed as popular and common as GSDs. Pet people want GSDs and are going to get GSDs and don't really care what dog people think they should value in the breed. Most want a trainable dog, easy to live with, not too serious of a guard dog and not too weird about strangers or what not. Oh and look like a GSD. You can argue all day about how wrong they are but they just think you're a crazy dog person ;)

    Bi-color GSDs may not be common in the Amlines in your area but they are not uncommon in Amlines in general. I see them at shows on a regular basis.

    I would say these GSDs who ended up in the pound are likely pet bred dogs though.
     
  11. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    I guess I'll just never get it. If someone doesn't want a dog with enegery, then I won't suggest any German Shepherd for them. I wouldn't suggest any herder in general.
     
  12. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    So, you're saying GSDs bred solely for pets aren't ruining the breed? I beg to differ.

    And furthermore, I've not met a GSD that is prone to being socially weird except for.....a PET bred one. And....I think it's unfair to say that GSDs as a whole are prone to dog aggression. Maybe yours were but that doesn't mean that breed as a whole is. I know plenty who aren't...hit they're those ghastly working line dogs.

    You want to promote a dog being bred for pet...that's your choice...but IMO, it's wrong. I still own the breed though, I didn't Ditch out when the going got tough like a lot of others do.
     
  13. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    I have 2 intact males and 2 intact females all in the same house. 3 working bred GSDs and a malinois. No dog aggression issues here. And mine come to daycare too ;)
     
  14. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I have 2 intact males and they get along fine. I can bring in any dog and my dogs leave them alone. Even other intact males.
     
  15. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    There's a working bred, actively working on the streets cop dog that trains with my club who's strange dog aggressive. lol. I don't think all GSD are DA (far from it!) but it's something I've seen in some measure from GSDs of many lines, I guess.

    Hell, my Mal is asshole with other dogs although not dangerous. *shrug*
     
  16. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I know people like all kinds of dogs, myself included. I figure we have dog "breeds" so we can reasonably expect certain traits to be more prevalent in those we want over others.

    In the end all I really care is that people are breeding healthy dogs and finding good responsible homes. That's all that really matters I guess.

    But, I'd like to think there are enough "pets" being born in this country, there really are. If someone "wants" a breed I prefer to support breeders that do more than pay lip service to a standard or those that completely disregard it. That excludes all sorts of breeders for me :)

    I've had an extremely DA GSD, and a whole bunch that didn't really care at all about other dogs and if pushed they could get rather formidable. But they never sought it out, except one of course. I loved her, but what a PITA :)

    Not all bred to "standard" dogs are perfect, there are always going to be variations, but the goal "should" be very similar for all breeders or a certain breed. I've certainly seen enough dogs of all sorts to know that good and bad come from all sorts of places. Reputable, byb, mill walmart parking lot.

    I have also noticed that those that really breed for a standard, test and prove their dogs legitimately, often produce very good, sound healthy dogs. They know what they have, they know what they're breeding. When i look at those that say they breed to a standard, but have no idea what they're breeding, it's just a dog with a good pedigree they bought from overseas with a title and hip clearances and breed it to another dog with a good pedigree and marketing potential hoping to sell lots of puppies, well then I see dogs all over the place.

    I had a guy come out to training that bought a dog for 50 **** dollars in Milwaukee. Dog came out of a newspaper ad and he went to look and the litter was driving the person so crazy he parted with this dog for 50 bucks. Just "had papers" but nothing more than BYB type shepherds in that pedigree. Dog was very good :)

    MY BIL bought a similar byb type GSD, bat **** crazy. One of the only dogs that has made me nervous, he died at age 6, I think he was shot by his owner, though the story is he was just dead. I would have shot him, he wasn't safe at all.

    My Father in law, same side thought it would be a good idea to get a GSD from the same place????? This dog is awesome. Not what I'd consider a working GSD, doesn't have the nerves or drive, but he is a great companion dog.

    I think I could go to that place and find some decent dogs along with all the horrible stuff too. The question is, who am I going to support?

    I guess the purist in me still hopes people that loved working and herding traits would look for working and herding dogs, and those that don't want those traits will look elsewhere or look to a good breeder striving for those qualities and is willing to wait for that puppy or dog that is lower in drive if that is what they're worried about and get that one.

    At the same time, part of me says screw dog breeds and give me dog types. Life is complicated :D
     
  17. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Personally I think we should breed ovtcharkas without guardian behaviors because looks are really the only important thing. I want my dog to look cool and act like a couch pillow. :D
     
  18. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Can you explain how what pet or show breeders are doing is affecting working breeders or the population working bred dogs?

    Ghastly working bred dogs?

    I guess it's great you've only met one GSD who was socially weird. I nearly got bit by a working bred, trained in IPO GSD because I sat too close to her while sharing a hotel room with her owner. My boss at the time got bit by the same dog at a show the next day because she moved her arm too quickly...or something. I also had a working bred puppy in puppy class once who was very nervy, fearful of strangers and strange things. Very poor temperament. And I know lots and lots of GSD people with all lines (yep, even working lines :eek:) who have had issues with household SSA with their GSDs. When I was going to the Schutzhund club, they had pretty strict rules about confining dogs when another dog was being worked because...get this...these dogs are sometimes dog aggressive.

    TBH You have to be one of the only people I have run into beyond clueless pet owners or people who've only been in the breed for 5 minutes who thinks GSDs aren't prone to dog aggression. IRL, the GSD people I know are pretty open about it.

    There's varying degrees of dog aggression, various types of dog aggression. It's usually situational. It's not as though I'm saying GSDs are all uncontrollable monsters around other dogs.


    Who ditched their dogs when the going got tough? I'm not sure I'm following you with some of the stuff you've said in this post.

    I'm not really promoting anything, other than the fact that there's GSDs being bred for to be show/pet dogs. It seems pretty reasonable that someone who everyone here seems to agree shouldn't get a GSD with a working temperament should maybe look at breeders who are breeding dogs for other purposes, that have a less historically correct temperament but a more suited temperament for being a pet in the modern world. I guess I'm just crazy or something.

    That isn't what I would choose for myself, I already know where my future GSD will come from and it's someone who is very serious about preserving the breed through titling, health testing and conformation ratings in the way outlined by the SV. But that's just me. That's what I would want in a GSD and GSD breeder. I'm not so self centered as to think that what I want or need should set the standard for what others want or need. People should get the dog they're going to be happy with and to anyone who thinks they know what everyone else wants or needs or should do ...well you know what they say about opinions ;)



    Pretty much.


    I could argue from an idealistic standpoint that GSDs should only ever be bred for work and no one other than people wanting working dogs should have them. But that'd probably be a bit hypocritical and a lot unrealistic. Like it or not, GSDs popularity with the pet owning public isn't going to change. And many of those pet owners don't actually want a dog that acts like a real working GSD. But their popularity in so many roles means there's GSDs who can suit many different types of owners. I don't look at is as right or wrong, just an example of how everything changes with time, including what people want or need in a dog and dog breeds themselves. Just be glad that there's enough interest in work for GSDs to support breeding working dogs. In many lower number breeds that isn't the case because there's simply no work for the breed.

    Which brings me to my favorite quote about breeds and breeding:

    "Dogs also exist within the cultural and economic conditions of their time period, which is why I don’t think we can recreate the St. John’s water dog and the Irish wolfhound probably isn’t the animal you want to use when you go to Alaska on a wolf hunt. The selective pressures that produced these animals disappear or are distorted once the exact conditions no longer exist.

    I don’t think my romance and nostalgia would ever lead me to do what Julius Wipfel and his colleagues did. After all, that project cost a lot of money and took decades to perfect.

    But I can’t say I’m not influenced by these same forces.

    Dog people wouldn’t be much without some romance and nostalgia.

    It’s just got to be kept in perspective."

    http://retrieverman.net/2010/05/13/the-recreated-ancient-eurasian-spitz/
     
  19. ruffiangirl

    ruffiangirl New Member

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    IMO dogs jobs change, if they are not bred into new directions they go extinct. So if we should only breed dogs with their original function in mind should we still be facing terriers off in the ring? Should only the most DA APBT and AmStaffs be bred? But because that's not a desired trait now it's ok to breed away from it, but it's not ok to breed German Shepherds that are not driven to herd isn't ok? Because everyone has herds of ruminants for then to tend now? And for the Ovtchakas, maybe yes we should. I fear that within five years we will have a serious problem in my province with them, I have seen one place sell at least three litter on Kijiji last year...a total of 24 pups (that were advertised I don't know how many were sold before the adds went up) how many do you think went to working homes? How many are going to end up altered? How long before we have litters of them crossed with Pitbull mixes? Because that's not a recipe for disaster at all.

    How few breeds would we have if they hadn't evolved through breeding to do other jobs? Even if that job is 'pet'?
     
  20. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    How does one have a blue, bully-style "APBT" and then suggest that buying a pet GSD is wrong?

    Does not compute.
     

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