Future third dog - breed help?

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Paviche, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    You need a Zip Tie. Fits your requirements to a tee.

    Not a Bazinga. She's so go, go, go that I think she's a bit more than you want.
     
  2. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Well there's this breeder: https://www.facebook.com/working.smooth?fref=ts

    That is the breeder I'd go to if I decided I wanted another Collie, if they were willing to sell to someone in the US. IME it is very hard to find Collies with much "oomph", which is why I never got another one. My Collie was awesome and fun loving and fairly drivey. I could never understand why performance people would make comments about how drivey he was because I thought that's just how Collies were. Then I started looking for another one and couldn't really find what I was looking for in temperament or really looks. FWIW mine was from a pet "BYB", who didn't show or breed for the ring.

    That said, I still think they're a wonderful breed. Most are willing to do stuff and very trainable, even if they aren't all that driven. They are awesome family dogs, great with kids, great with other dogs, great with people, great house dogs - can chill out or be ready to play depending on what you want. And they're silly :) That is most Collies IME, they are nice dogs and I often suggest them for people looking for a large-ish, biddable family dog that they don't have to worry about being too quirky. But most are really laid back, lower drive and yeah...not much "oomph". They just aren't quite what I want in a dog for myself.
     
  3. speedydogs

    speedydogs Allons-y!

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    I think along with English Cocker you've got a really good list here. I can chime in on LH whippets, which I think would check off a lot of your boxes! Although, I would love it if you got a koolie too, because we can never have enough koolie pictures :)

    They're on the smaller end of your spectrum (they don't usually weigh more than 30 pounds, and some are as small as 20. Mine all weigh 27-30 lbs), but they're not little dogs - because of the sighthound shape they're taller than most other dogs of the same weight. Cricket jumps 16" in CPE, and Journey jumps 20".

    Definitely smart, and definitely easy to train. They do tend toward the softer side and don't work well with corrections, but as long as training is kept fun and positive they pick things up very fast. High food drive and many have high toy drive as well. Newton will work his heart out for a tug - I wish I had cultivated this more with Cricket and Journey.

    Velcro-ness tends to vary from dog to dog...generally they do not want to be up in your business 24/7, but definitely want to keep track of you. Cricket usually wants to be in the same room I'm in, but if she's comfortable somewhere she's not going to bother getting up to follow me around. The males do seem to be more velcro than the females, from what I've seen. Separation anxiety doesn't seem to be a common problem.

    Oh yes. They are very snuggly, love to be touched and cuddled with. If I'm sitting down I usually have a dog draped across me or curled up next to me.

    They can make very successful performance dogs. They have more drive than a lot of sighthounds and have done well in many different sports (agility, flyball, rally, disc, freestyle, etc as well as things like lure coursing). Not as much "oomph" as some herding breeds will have, but all of mine are fast, have great focus, and a strong desire to work with people. Definitely a lot more drive than my rough collie had (though he was a rescue and probably not the most well-bred). All three of them compete (or are going to compete) in agility and I'd like to put some rally titles on them as well.

    Also, really great off-switch. When they're on, they're on, but when we go inside they settle down very easily. They are athletic dogs and can handle lots of exercise, but don't require a ton for their mental well-being.

    I've never met a longhaired whippet with DA or really even DR. I know a couple different people who keep about ten in the house together with zero problems.

    Coat length varies a bit from dog to dog (mine all fall in the medium range, which is my preference) but their coats are very soft and silky. They do shed but not excessively, and grooming requirements are very low. They're pretty wash and wear.

    Ours get along very well with the cat; they do have high prey drive, but if they are raised with cats there shouldn't be any issues.

    Varies a little from dog to dog, but they are pretty outgoing in general. They'll happily greet and receive attention from strangers, but not to the extent of being everyone's best friend.

    They are more people-oriented than a lot of sighthounds, and although they have prey drive, if you work on a solid recall off-leash walks are entirely possible. Mine are almost always walked off-leash; they will hunt and chase after small animals if I let them, but they are also very reliable about calling off a chase and sticking close to me if I ask them to.

    Now, unfortunately breeders are few and far between, and most are in the northeast. The breed community is very friendly and open, and because it's so small everyone knows everyone else. There's a big emphasis on performance - every breeder I know competes in at least lure coursing/racing as well as conformation, and over half do other sports as well (mostly agility and flyball). Not very many health problems, and breeders seem almost universally good about health testing - there should be genetic tests for MDR1 and CEA as well as a CERF and some kind of cardiac test (OFA or echocardiogram). Let me know if you have any questions!

    Fun fact - I was very, very close to getting an English Cocker Spaniel puppy (had my name on a list and everything) before I discovered longhaired whippets. I still really like them and wouldn't mind owning one someday.
     
  4. Paviche

    Paviche Duuuuude.

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    I have loved your descriptions of Zip Tie :) Maybe the *right* K/Coolie would be a good fit for me. That's exciting, since I like them but figured they weren't a good choice for a long time!

    The collie thing is... weird, I dunno how else to put it. I'm talking about the dogs I've seen at shows. They just kind of... stand there. I know that sounds dumb since it's a show, but the other breeds I look at are all alert, checking things out, maybe even being a bit bouncy. The collies just don't seem to do anything. BUT that is a small sample, and I've watched training videos on Youtube with collies and I like THOSE dogs! So maybe I really do just need to see some outside of that environment. We only have one at work and I don't think she's a good example; she's a very very very mellow pet dog.

    Speedydogs, thank you for the write up of the LHWs! That's very helpful :) I was very interested in whippets at one point in time but, as I said, I'm not big on a super short coat, and I really like that the LHW breeders tend to do a lot of activities with their dogs. The weight doesn't bother me so much as the height/overall size, so I think I'd be very happy with one in that regard. :) Hmm... now I have a lot to think about!
     
  5. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Well, when Logan's working, especially if he's resting on the job, he looks like a pretty boring dog. For many show dogs, standing in the ring is their "job" so they take it seriously. It's amazing the difference between Logan at work and Logan "off the clock." Airnn can tell you how crazy he is in coursing lol. And yet that same dog turns into a dog that doesn't react to any distractions when he's working. Some collies (and dogs in general) just find the show ring to be boring and tedious, and they've been to so many shows they just don't care.

    That said...Logan can be pretty bouncy in the ring. He's good for his first time, but his second and third times in the ring each day he gets a bit fidgety and wants to PLAY. Especially since ZOMG THERE ARE OTHER COLLIES!11!!1!!1!
     
  6. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    There's also a difference between rough collies and smooth collies. Smooths tend to be a bit sharper than roughs. In general, I find roughs a little bit boring.
     
  7. LostAndConfused

    LostAndConfused Active Member

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    This is going to be my (limited) experience with English Shepherds


    - I prefer between 25-50 lbs, with 30-35 being ideal. Could go a bit bigger or smaller for the right dog, but nothing tiny or huge.

    Hudson is currently 36/37 lbs at 8 months old, as are most of his siblings. That said, the littler that was born a week after him, they are all pushing 50 lbs.

    - Trainable, eager to please. I like intelligent but don't need it as long as the dog is relatively easy to teach. Rowan is problematically intelligent AND pretty easy to train; Riff is kind of dumb but also not very easy to train which I find to be a frustrating combo.
    I don't really.....do anything with Hudson, but....Herder.

    - I like a Velcro dog, but I have two dogs with SA already and am really tired of dealing with it. Ideally the dog would be happy to shadow me when I'm around, but be independent enough to handle being alone for periods of time (usually not more than 4 hours.)
    Hudson is a girl's best friend. I never have to go to the bathroom alone. But he is crated for 4-8 hours during the week. He barks a little when he first goes in, but seems to be quiet the rest of the time

    - I really want an affectionate/cuddly person. I'm very touchy-feely and want a dog that can at least tolerate that, although I'd prefer they enjoy it too :)
    Hudson isn't super cuddly. He usually prefers to hang out on the floor, instead of the chair with me. But....BUT! If I am on the floor, he is on my lap. He also sometimes sits on the back of the chair, like a cat

    - I want a dog with enough drive and "oomph" to enjoy playing dog sports, but I don't want a dog that is so go-go-go that they need a job all the time. I'm willing to sacrifice some drive for that; I'd like to put a few titles on the dog (agility, maybe rally) but don't need a real high end competition dog.

    I know one of his sister's is going to start doing flyball when she is grown. I would like to get him involved in dog sports as well, but I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to put the time/effort into it. I'm kind of lazy. Hudson is pretty content to play fetch outside, go on a walk a few times a week, play fetch in the house, etc. He doesn't seem to need a job


    - MUST GET ALONG WITH OTHER DOGS. This is huge. Rowan has a very low tolerance for rudeness, so while there's certainly a training aspect on this requirement (learning boundaries, proper greetings etc) I really need an easygoing dog that is ok with Rowan being a little bit of a bossy punk. This one is a little hard to pinpoint because his favorite dogs and some of his best friends are cattle dogs/cattle dog mixes which are just as pushy and snarky as him. However they've all had good dog sense; they seem to read each other well and never push over each other's thresholds. The real problem is crazy, excitable oblivious dogs (like sweet Riffers) who has no idea how obnoxious he's being.

    Hudson is a lot rude and obnoxious with other dogs. Bouncy and in your face. But, he did learn to back down after a few snarks from Julee's Ember (sp?) when they were at the dog park. He also seemed to (eventually) play pretty well at the dog park. A few tussles , which very easily could have been caused by him having no manners. He also isn't raised with other dogs. The only one he sees and interacts with regularly is my sister's dog who also has no social skills

    - I prefer a coat I can bury my fingers in, so like a lab's fur or thicker/longer is my preference. I could go for a smooth coat for the right dog, it's just not my favorite. High grooming requirements are ok, not my favorite thing to deal with but it's a compromise I'd be willing to make.
    I really like his coat right now. It will fill in more as he gets older, but I really like it.


    - Ideally will get along with cats in the house as well. I don't have one now but likely will in the dog's lifetime. They would never be left alone together, I just don't want the dog constantly chasing the cat either.
    Hudson does really bother the cat a lot, but that is because he wants so badly for them to be friends

    - Temperament with strangers doesn't really matter. I like anything from aloof to extremely friendly. Rowan thinks everyone is his best friend ;) but I would be just as happy with a dog who didn't care.

    Hudson thinks people are only alive to pet him. He is kind of bouncy and in your face about it, but he is getting less interested in them on walks.

    - I'd LOVE a dog I could train to go hiking and stuff off leash.

    Lots of people go hiking with their ES off leash. I definitely don't trust him to be off leash right now (8 months) but he was very good yesterday dragging his leash on our walk.
     
  8. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    You need a Journey. I can't speak for other Aussies, and she's only 7 months old and my first, but she fits your list to a T.


    I prefer between 25-50 lbs, with 30-35 being ideal. Could go a bit bigger or smaller for the right dog, but nothing tiny or huge.

    Aussies vary in size quite a bit it seems, but most I've met and known seem to be around the 35-45lb mark.


    Trainable, eager to please. I like intelligent but don't need it as long as the dog is relatively easy to teach. Rowan is problematically intelligent AND pretty easy to train; Riff is kind of dumb but also not very easy to train which I find to be a frustrating combo.

    Journey is super, super biddable. She learns incredibly quickly, and wants to learn and please me. She can be a little distracted sometimes if there are other dogs running around, but she actually has a lot of focus for a puppy and tries hard.


    I like a Velcro dog, but I have two dogs with SA already and am really tired of dealing with it. Ideally the dog would be happy to shadow me when I'm around, but be independent enough to handle being alone for periods of time (usually not more than 4 hours.)

    Journey is my perfect little shadow. She's not insistent or needy about attention, but she's always around, always watching, following. Sometimes I wish she would just stay in one room while I leave for a second, but nope, she has to see what I'm doing. At the same time though, she doesn't have any SA. She showed signs of it when she was little, but now I can leave her alone or with other people and she's fine.

    I really want an affectionate/cuddly person. I'm very touchy-feely and want a dog that can at least tolerate that, although I'd prefer they enjoy it too :)

    Journey is super cuddly. She leaves when she gets hot, but she loves to cuddle and be close. And again, without being pushy and needy about it.

    I want a dog with enough drive and "oomph" to enjoy playing dog sports, but I don't want a dog that is so go-go-go that they need a job all the time. I'm willing to sacrifice some drive for that; I'd like to put a few titles on the dog (agility, maybe rally) but don't need a real high end competition dog.

    Journey is a busy puppy who definitely enjoys doing stuff and so far as excelled at everything I've asked of her, but she also has a fantastic off switch and is very pleasant and relaxed around the house. And if I skip doing a bunch of stuff with her for a couple of days, due to life simply being busy, she's totally fine.

    MUST GET ALONG WITH OTHER DOGS.

    This one I can't really speak for, as she is only a puppy and with maturity how she feels about other dogs could change, but right now she loves other dogs and has the type of personality to be rough and tumble when warranted, but also very respectful and quieter when warranted. It just depends on who she's playing with. She takes corrections from other dogs well too most of the time. There have been a couple of times where she did snark back, but honestly the other dog deserved it. Normally she just backs off for a second.

    Her breeder did say that most Aussies don't seem to be real doggy type dogs though, in that they don't care for the company of other dogs/aren't the type to play with stranger dogs necessarily as adults. But they're not supposed to be aggressive or anything. Just aloof. Which to me is totally normal. None of my dogs care much about strange dogs.


    I prefer a coat I can bury my fingers in, so like a lab's fur or thicker/longer is my preference. I could go for a smooth coat for the right dog, it's just not my favorite. High grooming requirements are ok, not my favorite thing to deal with but it's a compromise I'd be willing to make.

    Being from show lines, I expect that Journ will probably end up with a fairly thick coat, but I'm not expecting it to be any more difficult to care for than it is now. She never knots, everything falls off of her, she dries in minutes, etc. I trim her ears and feet monthly to keep her looking tidy, but otherwise, the only time I even run a brush through her is if I want her to look a bit prettier for Agility class haha.

    Ideally will get along with cats in the house as well. I don't have one now but likely will in the dog's lifetime. They would never be left alone together, I just don't want the dog constantly chasing the cat either.

    Journ's not around cats enough to really know. I can imagine that she'd want to chase one initially, but I don't feel like she'd be a danger to a cat. Just playful and I'd work on teaching her to be gentle and ignore the cat. But, this is again probably a very individual dog thing. The only time she's been around cats, they hissed at her, and she appropriately thought that she shouldn't bother with them.

    Temperament with strangers doesn't really matter. I like anything from aloof to extremely friendly. Rowan thinks everyone is his best friend ;) but I would be just as happy with a dog who didn't care.

    Journey is very friendly with everyone right now, but I've noticed as she gets older, she's a little less "Omg I just met you and you're my best friend!" than she was, thankfully. She loves attention from people, but would still choose me over people if she had to.

    Other Aussies I know are much more reserved, in a nice way. They're simply aloof and couldn't care less about strangers.

    I'd LOVE a dog I could train to go hiking and stuff off leash.

    Journey is very handler focused and I don't worry about her off leash at all. Even when it appears that she's not paying attention to me, she is and comes running if I say something. She just wants to please and hang out with her favourite person.
     
  9. Paviche

    Paviche Duuuuude.

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    I think I need to meet some good Smoothies :) I think most of the collies I've seen at shows have been roughs.

    L&C, thank you! English Shepherds are on my "definitely" list for the future, but I'm not sure I want one next. I have always read that they are very strict rule enforcers, and I could see that clashing with Rowan's don't-tell-me-what-to-do attitude toward other dogs pretty easily. Your description makes me want one, still, which is awesome - I think I will absolutely adore an ES later on.

    I was hoping you'd drop by and talk about Journey! She really does sound like a dream. :) Is she particularly vocal? That's been one of my concerns about Aussies, and although it's not SUCH a big deal that I put it in my list, it is a consideration. I like talkative dogs, woo-woos and grumbles and what not, but persistent barking tends to irritate me. Riff is a big barker and it drives me nuts, but it's really only in certain situations (when he gets really really amped playing, for example.) So I can definitely live with it, it's just not my ideal.
     
  10. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Well, you're really only 7 hours away, you can do a road trip ;)
     
  11. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    I was going to make a Collie thread but I think I already know the answers. Glad to see someone has had similar experiences.

    I keep thinking I want a Collie and then I come to the conclusion you did, with pretty low drive. There is a Rough in my ob class and she does great with that, but certainly wouldn't push it around an agility ring or anything. My boss has a Rough too that is much uh..bouncier?.. but still doesn't have the intensity I prefer. I think that's what bothers me about them, they don't have 'edge' or intensity. Great dogs though. I suppose an adult rescue/rehome would be an option but there isn't many. Most of what's in rescue is blind/deaf/seniors. Not that that's bad, but not really what I would look for myself at this point.
     
  12. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I haven't really seen a collie I'd call 'intense'. Reveille VIII comes the closest- she's a very animated dog, seems to love fetch, friendly and lively. Still not intense though, but she's a nice dog and the first collie I've met that I'd want.

    I know a few performance collies- both smooth and rough. They are very biddable but not very drivey at all. There is one large rough that does agility and he's a nice dog, very balanced, but yeah definitely not a fast dog. He's not super slow or anything, he's not walking the course- he's just not very zippy. We had a smooth in our agility class a while back that was owned by a friend that has aussies as well. He was about the same as the roughs I know when working but he was very noise sensitive and took tons of time to get acquainted with things like the teeter- they totally freaked him out. I am not sure if that is normal but he was very soft and sensitive.
     
  13. LostAndConfused

    LostAndConfused Active Member

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    If you have any questions just let me know. My experience is only Hudson and following a bunch of other people with ESes on FB. So far, Hudson is not a rule enforcer at all, lol
     
  14. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Collies are a soft, sensitive dog for the most part. But I wouldn't call noise sensitivity "normal." Just as with any other dog, socialization is key. Logan is bombproof. I was so thrilled at his ATTS test when they fired the gun rightnext to him and he just didn't care at all. I suppose the softness makes them easy to train, but it also makes it easy to mess them up and kill drives when you didn't intend to.
     
  15. Paviche

    Paviche Duuuuude.

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    Don't tempt me!! I've been vaguely planning a road trip to Dallas for a while now and so it would basically be on the way. I would love to meet Logan! He sounds awesome.
     
  16. Toller_08

    Toller_08 Active Member

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    She's not very barky at all anymore. When I first got her she was a bit, but as she's grown up she very rarely barks. The only time she gets really barky is if she is frustrated and overstimulated. Which basically only happens if she is playing with a dog a lot faster than her. Like the dobermans sonetimes or her Whippet friend. And in agility if a couple of the dogs got really riled up or got zoomies, she tried to bark but is easily redirected with food and rewarded for quiet. So, while barking is her natural reaction to frustration and chaos, she is pretty easily controlled and honestly it's very rare that I hear her bark. Only sometimes in those certain specific circumstances. She just likes order and control and if she feels like everything is all over the place and not in control, she likes to say something about it. At home or just in general, it is very rare that I hear anything out of her. She doesn't even talk (I wish she did lol). She is a very quiet dog so far. But lots of Aussies do seem to like their voices for sure.
     
  17. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    DOOOOOOOOOO ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT



    ;)






    lowercase
     
  18. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    When you compare collies to some of the other herding breeds - especially border collies, ACDs, malinois - no, they're definately not as intense. Personally that's what drew me to collies: they're not as intense, but they're still definately thinkers.

    Keegan is SO observant it was a little unnerving to me when I first got him, LOL. He seriously seems to know what I'm going to do even before I know what I'm going to do. He's sometimes difficult to train because he figures out the behavior faster than I can shape it, and in the end I realize that I'm holding him back.

    But while more intense dogs sometimes drift into the realm of neuroses, Keegan does not. I had a roommate with a lab who would literally fetch a ball until he would have a heart attack and die. Keegan will very happily fetch a ball until he's tired, and then he stops and takes a break. The lab would drink water until he was literally water-drunk (I didn't even know that was a thing until I met him) and eat pounds of food at a time if you let him (or if he broke out of his crate and got into the food bag); Keegan eats and drinks what he needs and then stops... but still always has an appetite for training treats.

    And yeah, the rescue option is a difficult one. I've been closely following collie rescue for about 4 years now, and there are only 2 or 3 dogs that I would have been interested in adopting. I made a lot of friends mad when I chose to get a dog from a breeder instead of a rescue, but in the end it was kind of my only choice.

    After that, you could just make the little drive from Dallas to Austin! ;) It'd be like a collie pilgramage, LOL.
     
  19. Paviche

    Paviche Duuuuude.

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    See now that's just not fair... my brother lives in Austin so I'd probably head down for at least a day or two during my visit anyway! "Collie pilgramage", I like that! :D
     

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