food protective

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Nebis, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. Nebis

    Nebis New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    i posted a while ago about my 13 week old puppy being protective of bones but now shes also protective with food. i tryed what you said about giving her a trade. everytime shes eating i throw her a peice of turkey and get closer then throw her another but it hasnt worked. shes still just as protective. i got really mad at her today and kinda lost my temper because she has been doing realy well potty training and its been 2 weeks since shes gone in the house. as soon as a i bring her in from a 30 min walk she comes in and shits everywere then i gave her her food and then touched her bowl to move it and she bit me. thats when i just lost it and maybe got a little rough with her :( . im just so frusterated about this food thing. i know what you guys said about not taking it away from her but when she bit me i just pushed her really hard away from the food bowl and took the whole bowl with me and then tossed her in her crate. yeah i know i shouldnt of done that but im not haveing a good day as it is. i need another method of eliminating food protectiveness
     
  2. Herschel

    Herschel New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    East Central Illinois
    I'm going to give you advice for your behavior problems, so please read all of this.

    1) Have you thought about rehoming your dog? I strongly suggest it. Puppies are extremely time/energy consuming and you need to have a world of patience with them.

    THERE IS NO REASON AT ALL TO BEAT, ROUGH UP, OR PUNISH A PUPPY

    2) Your dog doesn't trust you. If I were her, I wouldn't trust you, either! A 13 week puppy is a baby--you can't beat her for having an accident, especially if she has been accident free for 2 weeks!

    3) She probably bit you because you beat her. If she is already food protective/aggressive, you're just encouraging the behavior by scaring her.

    4) The crate should NOT be punishment! My dog runs to his crate as his safe spot and when he is tired and needs a nap. Crate training will be easier for you and your dog if the crate is a positive thing with toys, a soft blanket, etc.

    Advice:

    NILIF: Nothing in life is free.

    Make your dog work for her dinner. Basically, use the dogs food as training treats. Make it clear that you control the food. Have her sit, give her a piece of food. Have her lie down, then give her a piece of food. She'll get the point soon.
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    I agree with Herschel. No offense, but you're ruining any trust between your dog and you by mistreating her. You can't train a dog properly without trust.

    First of all, what you did was not a trade. She got her bowl of food AND the treat you threw to her. She got everything and learned that that's how it works.

    I'd start hand feeding her....NO bowl at all. And ask for a sit before she gets a handful of food. Then ask for another skill...etc. Spread it out over the day, not all at once...like Herschel said.

    Personally, if you're running out of patience this soon, you probably should re-home the dog.

    If you want to try and think you're going to like the pup, then find out how to handle a dog. This really should have been done before getting the pup. She's awfully young to be biting you, which makes me think she really must be frightened and on the defensive....very young to be feeling this way. Please don't mistreat her anymore because she'll be ruined for life if you do. No one will be able to do much with her if you do re-home her and her life will be a waste.

    That said, as hard as it may sound, there are ways to condition a pup to your handling and taking food or other items, systematic ways. Trying to be "boss" and over dominate is what gets people bitten and ruins trust between the dog and owner.

    I'd work on making training fun and rewarding ONLY for a while. Win back some trust. Have fun, take walks and don't mess with her food for a few weeks. Then let us know in detail how she's doing, how she's responding to you in other areas. Then I'll tell you in detail how to condition her to letting you touch her stuff, her food.

    Watch her when she's inside every second. She is not going to the bathroom in the house to spite you or make you mad. She is a baby. She is a dog. Dogs don't have that complex of a brain. She simply doesn't know. It's up to you to teach her. Punishment will make her miserable, confused and will never teach her anything. You have to praise and treat lavishly when she goes outside. You prevent her from going inside. If she goes inside, it's your fault, not hers. Clean it up and don't make any issue out of it at all. Potty training takes time. Some dogs take months and months. She's an infant still. My Dobe didn't get it till he was 10 months old. I've had dogs get it in a month or two.

    Again, if you don't think you have the patience for this, why not consider re-homing the dog? It might be better for both of you. I don't mean to be discouraging, but sometimes it's just not a good thing for some people to have a puppy. They're very difficult, granted. It takes some learning ahead of time to do a good job with a pup.

    Remember she's an infant pup....like punishing a 6 month old human baby for wetting their diaper.
     
  4. Nebis

    Nebis New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    are you kidding? i dont beat my dog. that was the first time i have ever laid hands on her and all i did was push her. she trusts me fine every time i wak through the door shes jumping all over me and licking my face. she follows me in every room of the house and is always by my side were ever i go. its definatly not a trust issue. i will try the hand feeding technique. i dont know were you guys got beating from. i work with someone is is a top dog trainer and her pitbulls are top in the country. she always tells me its ok to rough em up a little and alittle smack on the ass wont hurt them but just startle them and it works. yet i have never tryed it but its just advice i have gotten. i didnt push her for going to the bathroom on the carpet i punished her for sinking her teeth into my hand. i thought if i didnt react to her attacking me then she would think she can get away with it all the time. i didnt know that when a dog bites i should just let it go like that.
     
  5. Good Gods.

    Really, he didn't hurt the dog, he pushed her away from her food bowl. Big freaking whoop. I'll tell you what, if that had been Kona, she would have been whacked with a newspaper. Which I have done before... does that make me a dog abuser? NO!

    Where do you get he beats her from pushing her? Really?

    You automatically assume that he has beat her before, or something of the sort. Give the guy a break, he is looking for advice.

    Nebis, take my advice. My dog id a very happy 10 month old, and her crate was her punshment as well. She just got sent there for drinking out of the toliet, matter of fact. You dog will be fine. She currently sleeps in there, and stays in there when we go out of the house, so she won;t tear out toliet paper.
     
  6. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    This is not the way to train or treat a 13 week old puppy.
     
  7. Nebis

    Nebis New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    yeah keep reading. so the punishment was i pushed her away from the bowl and took her food and put her in the crate.. might wanna look up the definition of beating
     
  8. Brattina88

    Brattina88 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2004
    Messages:
    12,953
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    OH
    It depends on who your talking to... there are much nicer ways to correct a dog. Does she shy away from your hand yet? I've fostered tons of dogs that I actually have to desensitize them to newspapers :(

    Using a crate for a time out isn't a bad idea. However if you consistantly associate a crate with negativity its going to become a negative thing and she isn't going to want to go in it.

    Sometimes dogs learn that it is okay to get physical with you, because you get physical with them.

    possesive retraining
    I'd suggest teaching Leave It as well
    ;)
    hope that helps


    Oh, and remember she's just a baby. Accidents are to be expected, and probably the walk worked everything down and she had to go after that :p ;)
     
  9. Angelique

    Angelique New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    547
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One dog
    It's not uncommon to get frustrated with a dog when you haven't been provided with the tools you need to set boundaries and be a leader, instead of simply trading for items and trying to use "Positive Reinforcement Only" training methods. Some leadership skills might help.

    It wasn't the fact that you pushed the dog away from the bowl, it's that you were frustrated when you did it. A dog can sense this and you could end up being viewed as unpredictable, which can cause the dog to lose trust in you.

    Don't beat yourself up over it, just move on and don't do it again. I know more than a few people who have started out trying to impliment training without leadership, and also got frustrated and did things they shouldn't have, or regretted. A Pack Leader must also be a trusted and consistant leader.

    Since your pup is now biting, I would get a behaviorist who understands dog psychology, can teach you some leadership skills, and help you and your dog within your home. No need to rehome the dog if you're willing to stick with setting some boundaries and keep your temper in check. :)

    In the meantime, reading Cesar's Way by Cesar Millan and sticking with his principles by putting the needs of your dog *FIRST* could help you understand how your interactions with your dog are being "read" by the dog and give you some basic leadership principles to help you.

    I highly recommend this book.

    Good luck and don't give up!
     
  10. LabBreeder

    LabBreeder Guest

    You don't need to push a dog into their crate and take their food away. If you continue to do this your pup will DEFINITELY not trust you, will get worse with food possession and will bite you again. If you can not look into training books or a good trainer that doesn't hit their dogs then maybe you should find another home for your pup. This is a young dog. Most aren't fully potty trained until they are 6 months old. If you are going to push your dog around and get pi$$ed every time there is an accident in the next 3 months you'll have a very dysfunctional dog. Crating needs to be positive, not strictly punishment oriented. The dog is supposed to enjoy being in the crate by itself not despise it or associate it with punishment. How did your puppy get so food possessive? Were you taking it's food away or not feeding it regularly? There had to have been something to trigger this "food guarding" in a young puppy. You absolutely have to train. Feed by hand, make the pup sit before feeding. If you can't deal with it now, it'll get worse later.
     
  11. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    In a puppy this young I have to wonder if the food aggression is genetic. She's too young at this point for it to be a learned behavior unless you've been taking her bowl away, messing with it, bothering her, punishing her, etc. every time she eats. And I don't get that vibe by reading your posts.

    A pup this young and already displaying aggression is something that you NEED to swiftly nip in the bud before it gets worse. This means seeking out a trainer that has experience dealing with aggression in pups. And even with that on your side you may be looking at a lifetime of management with this dog. Now would be the time to back out and rehome her with someone more experienced if you're so inclined to do so. If not, get ready for some intensive training for a very long time.

    I doubt you caused this behavior, so please don't beat yourself up about it. But if you do keep her it's your responsiblity to find someone who can help you train her effectivly. Only a trainer that can see you in person can give you tailored advice.
     
  12. girlbuffalo1

    girlbuffalo1 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Indiana
    I would

    Wrigley was never food agressive but he was and still is food obsessed--I have heard to deal with food agression you can pour the food and then stand in between the food and your dog. Keep calm and confident. If she tries to go for the food keep moving around the bowl--by doing this you are "claiming" it as your own. After doing this for awhile let her eat--after a few practices you should be able to move the bowl from her without growling or biting.

    If Wrigley ever tries to bite (and he has never bitten out of agression more like play biting) I pick him up by the scruff and sternly tell him no--I put him down give him a toy he is allowed to chew on and ignore him.
     
  13. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Being protective of food is natural in dogs regardless of their place in the heirarchy. They have to be like that to survive in nature. We have to teach them actively how to replace that instinct and live by our rules, not theirs. They are very capable of learning this.They're domestic dogs. It's how I have taught all my dogs. I can take a fresh, meaty, juicy bone from any of them. I no longer trade them. They're just completely trusting when I take something because they never felt they were losing anything. Periodically, however, I will trade them or give them the thing right back.

    This comes by way of showing them that they're not going to lose anything, that in fact, they may get something even better. It comes from trusting us as their teacher and guide. That's why the trading is used by modern trainers rather than over powering them with force and domination.

    If you can teach you pup to retrieve a ball or stick and make it a game, that will help. When the dog brings you something but doesn't let go, have something better, a yummy treat and show him but don't give it to him until he releases the ball into your hand. Then start adding a cue. "give." Then give him the ball back or throw it if that's a better reward for him. If he gives you the ball, throw it immediately....start with just a short distance. Make it fun. He'll start giving you toys, balls, sticks because it's fun and rewarding to. He gets treats after he gives you something and he gets the thing back again.

    Then go to higher valued things. His food. After hand feeding for a few weeks, hold the bowl on your lap. Drop in a piece of cheese or meat. Stand up, holding the bowl, hand him another piece of real meat or cheese. Put the bowl down for him again and walk away and leave him alone the rest of the meal.

    Another time, walk by his bowl and if he's "nice," give him a special treat and then leave him.

    When he's very comfortable with that, go by his bowl, reach down and put a yummy treat in.

    In other words, you're showing him that you are no threat to his stuff and in fact you represent the giver of great things.

    Reward behavior you like. Don't give any attention (good or bad) for behavior you don't like. If he's engaged in something which in and of itself is rewarding, you have to distract him, give him an alternative behavior which he can be rewarded for.

    Anything close to harsh punishment...things which startle, make nervous, frighten, make him unsure of what's coming will cause him to not trust you completely.

    Be calm and relaxing. Be fun. Give him lots and lots of exercise so he's better behaved inside. Teach him basic obedience every day. That makes you the teacher/guide and him the follower. Use motivation and reward, not punishing yanks on the collar as so many people do. Make training fun for him and it will be fun for you.

    Look up online information about motivation and reward training so you're not as apt to become frustrated and loose your temper. If you make it a struggle over who is going to out dominate whom, you'll get nowhere fast. Dogs are meant to be with people but they have to be taught how to live by our rules. They are clueless. They are not spiteful or stubborn. That's human stuff. Dogs aren't complex enough for that.

    When the dog learns an English cue for a behavior, remember that it isn't the cue which drives the behavior. You have to reinforce it with reward. It's scientific learning law that we all repeat behaviors which are rewarding to us and we tend to not continue with behaviors which are not rewarding. We don't need some punishment to stop us. We simply need to have nothing in it for us to engage in it.

    Here are some links which my dogs and I live by. My dogs are happy, well trained and well mannered. They never give me any trouble. I recommend you read these over.

    http://www.dogpatch.org/obed/obpage4.cfm

    http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

    http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

    http://www.showdogs.co.za/wag_the_dog/dominance.htm
     
  14. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    How does that make you a trusted and respected leader? When you put a dog on the defensive, you're asking for aggressive behavior to develop, not to mention ruining your relationship.

    I would definitely not recommend this kind of handling. Harsh punishment does nothing to teach a dog what you do want. All it does is make him afraid and defensive of you.
     
  15. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Please don't think I'm trying to start an argument. That's really not my intention. I'm just wondering how you would handle a situation where you're being bitten? Surely you would do something to let the dog know that behavior is unacceptable, right?

    I'm not suggesting hitting or beating a dog for biting is the way to go. Of course not. But I'm interested to know how a purely positive trainer would handle themselves if in such a situation.

    Again, not trying to start anything. We all have our own ways of doing something, and while I'm perfectly happy with my way of handling a biter, I'm still curious to know how you'd handle it. :)
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Dogs have a reason that they're biting. They don't bite for no reason. So, I would try to assess what is causing the dog to feel the need to bite. There are many reasons for a dog to bite. It most often is a defense mechanism. They're untrusting of something or someone. Some dogs bite because they've become too dominant, but my belief is that they are few and that reason is not as common. Some dogs bite because they're playing roughly. Some are teething and their gums hurt. Some bite to protect their food or possession because they think someone is going to take it. Again, a defensive bite. For treating aggression, you never use aggression as a means.

    Here, it is described as play biting. And you certainly don't use aggression to teach a pup who has not been taught how to have a soft mouth and bite inhibition. They need to be taught. It is my belief that since we are humans and not dogs, we cannot emulate a mother dog or littermate closely enough to use this often misconstrued dog-like way of teaching. Mother dogs do not get that rough anyhow and it's few and far between that they get them around their necks or scruffs anyhow. They usually do some subtle thing before that even happens and people who think they're mimicking dogs are probably not. Humans can communicate something like this (and other things) in better ways to dogs and those ways have been determined by science and canine behavioral studies and experience. Our relationship with dogs is different than that of dogs with dogs.

    I don't train any dog by using aversives.

    If we're talking about play biting, how I would handle it is to remove the payoff the dog is getting for biting. That's me, that's the fun and games or the patting attention. Playtime is OVER immediately. I would walk away and clean out some drawers or wash dishes. I'd make sure the dog has something he can chew on.

    I taught my Doberman bite inhibition as a pup. That is, I did not disallow mouthing me altogether. But if it came even close to pressure on my skin, I let him know it hurt and then I'd leave the area for a few minutes. I'd then return and try again. When he would mouth me very very gently, I'd continue patting him or playing with him.

    Even now, occassionally, he'll get excited when we're doing agility, he's having so much fun and he may leap up in his frolicking and knock his open mouth against my arm. I'll squeel, "ouch!" I'll promptly end the fun and walk away. He hardly ever forgets, but once in a while.

    Scaring, hurting, freaking out a dog by shaking it up doesn't let him know what you want him to do. If the punishment comes a second too late, he may associate it with a behavior which is not the one you meant. Suppose he bites and then stops for 1/2 second. And now he gets shaken. He is being punished for stopping the biting. It takes a second or two to reach over, get a grip on his neck and shake.

    If you reward a dog by attention while he's mouthing gently with no pressure, he will see that that behavior is something to continue or to repeat. Nice things happen while he's being gentle.

    If you get up the second those teeth make any pressure on your skin, and leave the area and all playtime and affection is over, he will begin to associate those two things...bite too hard, playtime, good things gone. He will learn, if you and all who interact with him are consistant, to choose the way you want him to choose. He needs reinforcements to figure out what you mean. Without reinforcing good behavior, he won't learn.

    If you're off on your timing, either way, it can confuse the pup. However, if you're off on your timing with the getting up and walking away, no harm is done to the psyche of the dog. He simply missed an opportunity to learn this one incident. If you're off on your timing with punishment, you may be punishing a desireable behavior which will not tend to be repeated. And you are showing your dog that you are a scary and unpredictable leader and to do certain things in your presence is dangerous, not necessarily to do those things period. (in examples of other behaviors where you're not present all the time)

    Punishment, when the timing is right on and when it's severe enough will stop behaviors. But there are serious side effects to aversive punishments.

    So, that's why I use motivation and reward training methods, why I try to be observant in what things my dogs may consider a reinforcer or a payoff. Sometimes we have to look hard. What is it that this dog is getting out of this rotten behavior? What's so good about it to him? How can I prevent or remove that payoff? What else can I ask him to do that he can't do at the same time that he's engaging in this rotten behavior? What alternative skill or task could I ask him to do instead? If I don't want him on the furniture and he keeps getting up there, what's the payoff? It's comfy. So, what can I do while I'm in the room? I can put a comfy dog bed on the floor, maybe even more comfy than the couch. I can show him to lie down there. I can give him some extra yummy treats every so often while he's lying there to reinforce him for lying there. If he gets on the couch, I must be right there to show him again, his own bed. In fact, better yet, intercept him while he's just thinking about it, before he leaps up there. When I can't be there to watch him, I must prevent him from being reinforced by getting up on the comfy couch. I'll have to put some cardboard boxes or some other equally uncomfortable thing up there.

    I do not have to scruff, yell, jerk, slap, spray, throw things at my dog to teach him to stop an unwanted behavior.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2006
  17. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Thanks for the reply, but that's not what I ment. I was asking what would you do in the moment you are being bitten by a dog. Not a play bite. Would you allow the dog to bite you? Walk away? Do something?

    Again, I'm just wondering, not suggesting that someone should hit or beat a dog for a bite.
     
  18. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    Of course I would not sit there and keep on being bitten. I'd back off until I wasn't a threat to the dog at that moment. I'd look away and not stare at him in the face. I certainly wouldn't antagonize him further.

    Then I'd try to determine what the source of the issue was, what made him bite. And I'd work around it. You can't train a dog in one biting instance to not bite ever again. That is not the time to do it. You have to get at the source of the problem and it can't be fixed in 5 minutes. It didn't come on suddenly. Some underlying issue has been building until the dog reached the end of his tolerance level. So, to think you can cure him in 5 minutes like CM does is only supressing the behavior and not dealing with what caused the dog's need to bite. And although he may not bite again for a while, it's bound to re-surface again later.

    It would depend on if I could determine what the cause was why he is biting on what I'd do to work the problem...whether it was a possession guarding issue, a defensive, fearful issue, a dog trying to have his own way issue, a re-directed aggression issue, a lack of socialization issue. There are tons of reasons dogs bite.
     
  19. silverpawz

    silverpawz No Sugar Added

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Sigh. I didn't mention anything whatsoever about CM. Not interested in debating anything with you. Just curious as to what you would have done, and thanks for answering. Not what I'd do, but still interesting.
     
  20. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    22,036
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    2 dogs
    Location:
    western Wa
    I was using him as an example....as something to compare to...compulsive type methods as opposed to what you were asking about....to show a contrast, a different way. I'm not debating either. You asked a question and apparently I didn't get it right the first time, so I tried again to explain it better. Sorry it wasn't what you wanted.
     

Share This Page