Fila correct temp? how to test Part 1

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by planet molosser, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    As you all know I believe guardian dogs all should be socialized to accept public attention- not always friendly but attention none the less.

    THe less than ethical breeders in Filas that do NOT work test show or prove their dogs in any way shape or form.
    Yet they are reading this board now and take credit for peoples work like the Fila people here.

    In my breed we use CGC CGN TT and or Protection Defense tests to prove what the dogs can do or can not do.

    It is easy to get any guard dog to BITE be it fearfull or defense.

    It is much harder to get them to pass a CGC or TT.

    The CGC has a hand off to a stranger and i Can see that as a issue cause u you have 2secs to intro the person. Many of my dogs Central Asian Shepherd have passed this, But many I prefer who are more active in defense to do a TT- http://www.atts.org.

    The USA TT is quite different than the Cafib Fila TT.

    So how does one market and or prove a Filas temperament?
    Any dog can guard a yard but how does one prove a line for a breed not readily amendable to handling?
    :popcorn:
     
  2. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Part 2 If you a breeding a purebred dog in this case a Fila. Should you show them to the the standard ? If so how does one do that if one wants the dog shown to a expert.

    Filas are not UKC or AKC based on the "hands off judging".

    FCI judges know the breed well but are very few in between in the USA.

    Comformational faults can and will lead to disease in any breed.
    So some say why bother showing? it is not about the wins it is about learning how to read comformation faults that if doubled up on can and will lead to health issues.
    ( not enough teeth , wrong bite, lack of pigment, lack of angulation, easty westy, hocky etc as u all know).

    Now Ive seen many a Fila show from friendly ( Drews Josie) to insane at the Arba CB .
    But I dont know how a breeder can prove thier dog at min meets the standard.

    Is their a way for a Fila to be certified rated by FCi without have to be shown?>
     
  3. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Part 3 What genetic disease is in the Fila ? besides HD that needs to be screened for?
    Very few OFA dogs listed.
     
  4. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Part 4 Working can Fila just be worked in tracking , S & r and that be their future?
    Or ranch guardians? or will they hunt like cougar or bear?
     
  5. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    The way Kharma's proved herself is by working real cattle, protecting me in the real world - literally - and knowing just how far she had to go to carry it out and go no farther. I've seen her hunt on her own. I've seen her kill her prey. I've watched her do things with the cattle like forcing a cow to go to her calf by feinting toward the calf, watching to see which cow comes forward, then circling back and driving the cow to the calf. She's protected my property, me personally, and has shown a penchant for tracking. She also has a *thing* for cars that have had drugs in them, lmao!

    Trials are well and good, but they are games for the dogs and they don't necessarily translate to real world skills or willingness.
     
  6. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Dont get me wrong I am NOTTTTTT for 'trailing dogs" for any sport in a defense breed.

    But I am for testing nerves under pressure off property.

    I dont believe I have better dogs in cAS cause I test . I believe I am a better breeder cause the tests teach me no matter the breeding each pup can inherit different reactions.

    I Fully understand wanting a breed like the Fila to survive BSL.
    But the only way to do that is to test and work the dogs in public - showing control - stability and protection...

    i know the old time Fila people will hate me for this. But I do believe a Fila can be trained to handle a 1 min Hands on basic exam for faults which can interfere with the dogs health longivety or working ability.

    Not all my dogs can pass a CGC, some are too defensive, all should pass a TT.
    ATTS and any fila NOT bred to hate strangers should fly thru it with ease.
    The scoring is based on recovery not defense.

    My dogs are sold as Protection dogs but if they themselves are not tested for it.
    How does one expect the buyer to HOPE the dog will protect.

    If everyone was a dedicated to the breed such as yourself. We would not have backyard breeders. But if one wants to sell guardian dogs of any breed they must do something to prove the dogs can do what they were bred to do, or change their selection based on their breeding. EX training a Fila to track for good vs slaves would be a great idea.

    The reason as u know behind the post is not about chazzers.
    But the many yard breeders of Fila who buy reg dogs, do NOT work them, Do not show them, do not test them for health or temperament. Yet breed them based on thier notority for "aggression" then flip the coin claiming their Filas can take a abuse by kids and are great family dogs , yet NOT one dog can pass a TT proving show.

    CGC have a hand off to a stranger most guardian breeds never shown before can have issue with this. IF they show a few times they are used to hands off of leashes to friends. Dog to dog, basic obedience.

    TT is a walk in the park that tests stability and reactions to percieved threats NOT bite, not hands off to stranger, no dog to dog. It tests the dogs alertness to a threat thou not much OUTSIDE of its territory. I have dogs that will pass this test but would FAIL a close up TT for real protection and they were fixed and removed from breeding.
    Without testing I would not know what they can and can not do.

    BH is a basic obedience test with tracking I think a Fila could ACE if socialized.

    And god for bit I post this ive heard of Therapy Filas aka TDI test.

    Nationwide insurance will insure banned breeds which in some countries include the fila if they pass a TT.

    So in conclusion I cant see how the Fila is going to change if others do not get out there and work show and test NOT trial NOT compaign their dogs.

    PS The Filas I traveled to Mexico with DID not try to eat me.
    One fell a sleep on my lap :)
     
  7. Bunny82

    Bunny82 New Member

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    This statement sums up exactly how I feel on the subject. I always believed that there is no truer test of a dogs temperament or abilities than how they respond to an actual real life situation where you never know what the response (be it from human or animal) will be towards the dog.
     
  8. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Well as I said I dont agree about making a sport dog out of a guardian dog.

    But if everyone claims their dogs can protect and do its job based on their words vs achieving anything in the public eye.

    Thanks to many backyard breeders and fake websites.
    No one is going to believe it.

    In Germany and Russia Cold war Working dogs worked, they did not live in kennels for breeding. Yet they were taken once a year for a judge to evalute their comformation and to score them and to keep records of progeny.
    Plus dogs that were lame were removed from breeding that was thier old world version of HD testion. You ran 20 miles in circles all day the dog or the handler dropped they did not make the cut.

    Also they were required to do a basic protection TEST and obedience basic.
    Done away from other dogs and its own territory.
    This was done to maintain protection ability.

    Cause if you put 3 dogs in a work yard and no one breaks in, we assume the dogs did their jobs. Yet on TV we have professional crooks that can get dogs to back up who look tough but wont protect.".

    When I travel to bad places I have some dogs that I take with me over others cause during testing NOT trailing I learned they have a quicker trigger than others. Something I would NOt know If I did not test them.

    Cause how many are going to approuch a 140lb waving a stic at me in real life? But that one in a 100 chance it is nice to know they will do as they are supposed to do.
     
  9. Bunny82

    Bunny82 New Member

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    I have seen other Fila boards where they would probably have my head for saying this but when we get our Fila I do plan to socialize heavily.

    I have no interest in a huge dog jumping and snarling at everyone we pass by ready to attack, instead I want a confident well socialized dog that can accompany my family and I in our daily lives. No I don't expect our Fila to love everyone but I don't expect it to want to kill everyone either. lol

    I know that a true Fila will protect and defend if necessary, so I don't see the point in having one just to prove how big and bad the dog is by encouraging aggressive behavior.
     
  10. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Well we agree and differ.

    If a dog has passed a CGC and it social and is shown hands on and it out public and shows good behavior as evident by the CGC. And when mature is asked to defend and to out. That does not equate to "encouraging aggressive behavior".

    Allowing a dog to decide when to defend and not to listen to the owner present that is more encouraging "of aggressive behavior"
    Since the dog is not trained to CUE to the owers ok defend dont defend.
    It shows the owner they will have MORE control if and when the dog has to defend.

    I think I am out of my realm seems that the Fila people be it hands off or hands on have a different approuch to idealisms on TESTING dogs .

    All I know is if I did NOT CGC TDI TT PROTECTIon test my breed ( not all do all of those)
    the Public would eqate us along side the Fila or the Caucasian Ovcharka people who promote them as aggressive..( not all just most online)

    When they pull that crap with me I take out a dog in public & prove it & they SHUT up...

    When I was sued by a con artist who did a slip and fall around a dog I bred when I was not there. His dog promoted as aggressive and the CAS had TT's given by others show casing he falls as controlable in public. And the breed itself is NOT aggressive. The case was dismissed....

    Simply not testing and everyone breeding what is in their yard and claiming it is a real fila and will do real Fila things will not help the breed change.

    If everyone told the truth and was a trainer with proven abilities in testing I dont think we would have to prove anything.... IN perfect world.

    For the record I am in for the change to out the "hatrid" and in strong distrust.,

    But based on public image of late I dont see that happening...
     
  11. Bunny82

    Bunny82 New Member

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    I think you are perhaps misunderstanding me or I need to clarify my post. LOL Renee is much better at explaining than I.

    I never said that it was appropriate for a Fila to decide when it was time to defend rather I was making the point that a well socialized Fila that is exposed to different stimuli learns what is and what is not normal in the world around them, so rather than having a overtly aggressive dog lunging at everyone you have a confident dog that knows if defense is necessary (notice I said defense and not aggression?)
     
  12. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Here is a question for you guys, because I am very interested in living with a correct fila down the road.

    Is it totally unreasonable to expect a correct fila to pass the TDI test? I do not plan on doing therapy work with a fila, and I do not expect it to be something the dog enjoys. I do however want to build a level of trust between my dogs and myself, and a level of socialization that would allow them to pass the test. And allow them to come with me places instead of being prisoners at home.

    When the time is right for a fila, I want one for hunting/working livestock/moose lip kisses/entertainment. But I want one that isn't going to eat Aurelia's friends when they start wrestling with her (unless of course she is in high school, and her friends are boys....:p)
     
  13. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Here's the catch.

    MY ideal Fila isn't going to test well because it's going to intuit that the decoy isn't a true threat. I don't ever, ever want my ideal Fila to react to "games" or to view bitework as something of a hobby.

    I've watched Kharma with the occasional fool who thinks he wants to see how reactive she is. She totally blows them off. Literally. Eye rolls, disgusted looks, yawns, the whole bit. When some idiot thinks it's funny to peck on the car window she gives them just enough of a show to leave a dark, wet stain in their crotch, but she's clearly bored unless they do something that just really pisses her off.

    But when the threat's been real, she's been serious and *ON*

    I don't know how you test for that in contrived circumstances. They know when something's real and when it's a game, and a dog that's not game reactive is, for me, a great deal more dependable and a surer guardian.

    I have no idea, though, how to weed out the BYBs and the Shoo-Its types. :(
     
  14. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Romy, in my view of the world, that's not unreasonable, except if part of the test involves your Fila going with someone else, without you, and obeying them. That's how the test here at UT was done, and I would rather not have a Fila be amenable to that.
     
  15. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    The tester in our area doesn't do that. They do something where the tester takes the dog's leash and stands quietly with the dog while you go out of sight for three minutes. He doesn't try to interact with the dog, he just stands there with it and observe for signs of serious separation anxiety, like incessant barking and pacing. The dog is allowed to move around though. Mainly just stand there and look well adjusted.
     
  16. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Great post I understand- I agree some Fila in public do more harm than good.
    I had one lunge for me for no reason,a nd then I got to pet a few( big thrill).

    I do feel a Fila could pass a TDi as a exception to the rule.
    TDi requires the dog to have a low defense drive and to be HUGGED by strangers.
    I have 3 that passed and only two as adults out of 13 (CASDogs) than can do the work.
    I learned not to promo them as Therapy dogs cause Therapy dogs for the most part should NOT defend period.

    And the 1st part of a TDi test is a CGC and again stranger takes your dog.

    Ive had dogs not take decoys too serious in the Atts TT cause they dont come ino past 10 ft but they do alert and get between u and the alleged bad guy..

    Some PP dogs bred for protection ive seen **** themselves ( non fila) when tested.

    These tests weed out the weekest dogs not select the best.
    But it does teach the handler and later breeder allot of how stupid people can be and what to expect of the dog.

    If I had taken my 1st CAs and just stayed home vs going to expos, tests, shows.seminars where I met other breeders and breeds and worked them, and tested them.
    I would not understand what the public expects of a dog or what my buyers expect.

    Public perception can win a election for someone.
    Same applies for dog breeds public perception last a life time.

    I just sold a dog based on LOSING a show 2 years ago.
    I lost but the dog was stable confident loved and goofed ON me, was approuchable
    on command and yes later passed TDI CGC and TT ( doing protection now).

    So it is not about winning or passing but playing the game so the public can see these are not T rexs but just dogs plain and simple dogs that act a bit more this or that.
    But in the end is just a dog. Its the macho my dog is tougher then your dog crowd that causes BSL.

    IF a Fila ever does what a Presa did ( presa x) it will one day wind up like the pit Bull.
    Seeing that writing on the wall i was hoping you guys could stop it.
     
  17. DogstarAcademy

    DogstarAcademy New Member

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    You can also treat the 'supervised separation' as an out of sight stay- I've got a friend who passed it with a dog that way (dog was well-trained to IGNORE any commands (or interaction in general, unless released to greet) from strangers and return to handler EXCEPT when placed on a stay. :p)

    All that said, I was NOT impressed by the one TT I've seen, and I wouldn't spend money on it again. All four instructors were protection dog people and seemed to have NO idea how to score a response of stepping back to let a handler deal with a situation OTHER than calling it fearful.
     
  18. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    From R point of view is self preservation can take over where defense left off.

    I had a CGC CGN done this weekend and a while the woman did the walk away and the owner hid- The dog was calm but then someone tried to sneek behind the tester and the dog barked and alerted a Fila could go into self preservation and react.

    My dog passed ( my breeding) but I would of failed the dog in my mind as a protection dog .
    I he allowed this person to sneek up behind him and the tester without telling her some stranger is hiding behind you.

    So that 3 mins can turn into liability BIG time if the dog goes into any form of defense self or not.
     
  19. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    The TT name is (C) by http://www.atts.org
    But anyone can have a "temperament test" and score it like protection people or therapy dog people.

    When I did my last 2 TT's both of my dogs after the agiation went to my left side I was not allowed to command them and look at them. And I said **** if they show fear we fail.
    We passed and I asked the hubby HOW? he said they realised the bad guy was done at 10 ft and got between you and the silent 3 judges 4 ft from you.

    So the scoring will be interesting to see. But it taught me never judge a book by its cover.. Mine was hosted by the Rottie Rochester club thus those Rottie people do it all - TDi - Tracking - protection good rounded people.

    A tt is only as good as the host club.
     
  20. Squishy22

    Squishy22 Guest

    Shouldn't all guardian breeders be doing this kind of testing? Or do most just assume their dogs can protect? If I were out looking for a breed who is supposed to protect, I would want some kind of testing done to prove their dogs. I wouldn't want to buy a presa or rottie and have it act like a golden retriever. I've seen very poor specimens, because it seems like breeders are only concentrating on "looks" alone. And they assume their dogs can protect just because they put up a good show behind a fence, in a vehicle, or on a tie out. :rolleyes:

    And what is the difference between the different protection breeds? Dont they all protect in the same way, or no? Or are they all unique in the way go about their duties?

    Sorry for my ignorance. :eek:
     

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