Fake service dogs

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Shakou, Feb 20, 2013.

  1. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Society functions because of some rules and order. I am a pretty free for all person but the attitude of "I can do it because it doesnt hurt anybody" IMO is just wrong. Its selfish and rude. And how do you know it doesnt hurt anybody? What if there are people there with serious dog phobias? Does that not count or count less than someone who just wanted to shop and look around?

    I just cant fathom the idea of "Rules and laws dont apply to me because somehow I am above them"
     
  2. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    How many normally well behaved pets are proofed against being body slammed by strange children? People dropping food on it? Strangers grabbing their tails and pulling on them? Getting tripped over and kicked (Accidentally) by strangers? To not be reactive to aggressive dogs snarling inches from their face when you walk past an idiot not controlling their dog? It goes on and on.

    Dogs that behave well at home and on walks aren't necessarily going to do that same when place in the situations SDs have to deal with on a daily basis.

    I've run into aggressive SDs too. Strider was attacked in a store by another SD that broke away from its wheelchair bound handler to go after him.

    Last week some dude with a chihuahua on a flexi lead decided to (I'm assuming) be a faker and take his dog into the grocery store. As he was leaving, he stood in the doorway of the store and started texting people while his stupid untrained dog ran in a twenty food radius around him and attacked people. I had to grab my son off the ground and it bit my leg. That kind of crap, that hurts SD teams.
     
  3. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    No, that is not proper SD behavior. A service dog should not bark. Barking as an alert for ANYTHING in public is unacceptable. There are other less intrusive and far better ways to alert a handler. Barking is disruptive (what if they were in a movie theatre? a play?) and a dog can be kicked out for it. Most signals/alerts are physical - a knee bump, nose poke, changing position, licking, etc.

    1. Crate the dog if you want to see the fair. Coming back another day is not the only option. Your dog will be fine resting for a couple hours. May even perform better with the chance to rest. People seem to forget that dogs need rest and down time too.

    2. Therapy dogs are not trained to the same level as a service dog. Not even close.


    What about dogs making animals upset in fairs, zoos, etc? Service dogs are allowed in zoos, but with some limitations. If the animal in the exhibit is getting upset, you leave the exhibit. You don't take your dog to an exhibit where it would have direct contact with other animals (some zoos allow it, many don't, and I wouldn't take my dog there regardless of whether it's allowed - it upsets the zoo animals too much). It doesn't matter if the dog is ignoring the animal, the animal is often upset just because the dog is there. With only service dogs allowed, it limits the exhibit animals' exposure to dogs.
     
  4. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    :hail: :hail:
     
  5. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    As I said, it's a personal choice how someone feels about that. I know I don't obey every law all the time. I often speed, and when I was younger, I occasionally indulged in some illegal recreational drugs. *cough*. Society still continues on. So when I start condemning other people's choices, I say to myself "who am I to judge? What makes me so special that my choices are "okay", and I can condemn theirs?"

    So, I just don't do it. I'm willing to condemn people for things that do harm, but choices that other people make that don't bring harm on others are not my concern. If they are illegal choices, then that person is making the choice for themself that they are willing to accept legal consequences if caught, and that is also not my concern.

    And I don't buy the "serious dog phobia" as a legitimate example of doing harm. If a person has a phobia that serious about something they are so likely to encounter, I'm sorry, they need to find a way to get that phobia under control, or stay in special places where dogs are never, ever allowed, even SDs. Are midgets not supposed to go out in public because some people have achondroplasiaphobia?
     
  6. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    People have serious phobias, allergies, and issues with so many things, though!

    What if you have a phobia of dogs and you're walking to the mailbox and someone with a dog passes you? If you're afraid of dogs, you're never going to be able to avoid them. People walk them, drive with them, sometimes they get loose and run around, etc.

    What if you're allergic to rabbit and someone is wearing an angora sweater in front of you in the checkout line? What if you're allergic to perfume/cologne and someone is covered in it? What if meat offends you and you have to walk by the meat section at the grocery store?

    How about the magazines in the checkout lines of the grocery stores? What if you don't want your young children to know what sex is, but there's an issue of Cosmo right in front of them?

    What if you're driving 5 miles above the speed limit? Is that okay?

    Or what if you pass your glass of wine to your underage child so they can "try it" because it's normal in your ethnicity to do this? Is this okay?

    We've ALL broken laws/rules. I just don't see how a well behaved dog is such a Terrible Thing in a public place where they're not allowed (breaking a rule), just as driving a few miles over the speed limit (breaking a law, not just a rule) isn't.

    Of course, stores can choose whether or not they want to allow dogs, but I'll stand by my original comment: if a dog is behaving as well as a service dog is supposed to behave, it's better than a misbehaving service dog.
     
  7. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    Quoting for truth!
     
  8. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Everybody has their own limits, but nobody is beyond it either. People break all sorts of laws every single day and I don't think any worse for them. Speed limits, dog licensing, how many cars are parked in their driveway, having a party without a permit, moving their cars a few feet to avoid a 2 hour parking rule, certain sex practices, etc.

    I'd be willing to bet everybody on here is guilty of breaking a few rules every single day.
     
  9. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    I know multiple children who have serious dog phobias. Screaming, out of control panic. It is very sad and MANY outgrow it. Yes, sometimes they cant help being surprised by a dog being somewhere unaccepted. As a mother, I would have no problem accepting my child's freak out for the "greater good" (cant think of how to word that) of someone using a service dog...NOT ok with it because someone was being selfish and was lying about their dog.

    And there are people extremely allergic to dogs...again, I would assume for service dogs they would be fine with accepting that....but they shouldnt have to for someone who doesnt NEED their dog with them.

    Its a simple thing we should be taught as children...needs vs wants.

    And yes, its a big huge gray area.....but for me faking a service dog clearly falls on the wrong side. I get really annoyed with people who speed up to cut in last minute in traffic too....its rude and selfish. Speeding, just going faster and not cutting people off etc I dont equate the same.

    Recreational drugs...well, one can partake all they want...they can also get arrested and put in jail for it.
     
  10. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    Yet again, I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it inappropriate for someone to have an ill-behaved dog that they were bringing somewhere as a fake SD. That means that I would expect the dog to tolerate whatever they might encounter in the environment that they were taken into as a good SD would. I would not imagine that most people who might sometimes fake the SD thing would take the dog everywhere, just certain places, so they really aren't put to the same stress as a SD.

    My own dogs, who are not SDs or fake SDs could tolerate most of the stuff you mention, though they'd eat the food. Well, and Tess might react to a dog close to her snarling at her, though not if she didn't have to tolerate it for more than a few seconds.
     
  11. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    There was a girl in my high school who was terrified of cheese. If you even said "cheese" to her, she'd run around in a panic.

    That said, cheese was still served in the lunch room.
     
  12. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    all very valid excuses here in America where we've perfected the art of getting "our way". I wonder how all these other countries all over the world survive with a much, much, much more friendly dog culture than we do here? Why are our kids so incapable of dealing with dogs? Why are our people so allergic? why are so intolerant of everything in the "land of the free"?
     
  13. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Most is not good enough. Everyone seems to think that taking the dog in public is easy. It's not, and the proofing (public access training) is the hardest part of training a service dog. Tasks are easy. Public access is what takes the longest and require the most effort, and what eventually washes a service dog out.

    Considering in the general population only roughly 1 in 100 dogs is suitable for service work, I do not think it would be a good idea to open places up to all dogs. I'd rather not have 99 sub-par dogs for the one dog that will behave appropriately (assuming that all 1% of dogs are trained to the same rigorous standards...presumably most will not be, so maybe only 1% of those 1% would actually behave appropriately).




    I don't think I've ever seen such a gross display of selfishness and disrespect on Chaz as I've seen in this thread. Appalling.
     
  14. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    NC has a voluntary registration process for SDs that includes sign off by a trainer. The registered SDs get a collar tag that labels them as such.
     
  15. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Well, children who grow up in very dog friendly cultures are acclimated to it better I am sure. I do wish we as a culture WERE more dog friendly.

    However, we are not and we have rules and laws about where dogs can go. Its fine to challenge those laws, to fight those laws, to disagree with those laws...I do. What IMO is NOT ok is LYING about have a disability and lying about your dog to bring them places they do not NEED to be.

    The allergies and phobias - those were pointed out because we dont always know whats going on with others. All of this "no judging, they might actually have a disability" well I am not seeing the same courtesy extended to those who might have a disability and not have a dog.

    (Also, to be clear, I am not talking about people whose disabilities may not be noticeable..I am talking about the people who admit they are lying and faking)
     
  16. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    I've wondered this as well.

    In most developing countries, stray dogs are everywhere and unavoidable. They'd walk right up to us in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. There were at least 10+ "resident" strays on the main beach strip in San Juan Del Sur, and most of them weren't shy.

    Even in my visits to places like Ireland and Scotland, owners would walk their dogs off leash. In fact, I saw more well-behaved off leash dogs than leashed ones. Dogs off leash in public parks were VERY common. Their owners would be playing ball or frisbee with them, and they were ignored/left alone by other park-goers.
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    It's not breaking a law vs. breaking a rule. Posing as a person with a disability is a federal FELONY, and in most states it's a misdemeanor according to state law.

    It's a felony to pretend to be a blind person. You aren't even allowed to possess a long white cane if you're not blind. It's flat out illegal. SDs are the same thing.

    ETA: I have no problem with laws changing to allow dogs to go into more places. That would be super rad actually. I like that sort of culture. What I do have issue with is people thinking it's not a big deal to commit a crime impersonating someone with a disability because they don't want to or like following the same rules everybody else has to follow.

    Even people with disabilities can't legally bring well behaved pets everywhere with them. They have to actually go through with the time and expense of task training and public access training.
     
  18. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    I never said anything about anyone pretending to need a service dog.

    I said a well behaved dog in a public place where dogs aren't allowed. I said nothing about pretending that they're a service dog. No patches, no IDs, nothing. People can make their own assumptions about what the dog is doing in a store/place where dogs aren't allowed.

    I do think that a well behaved "fake" service dog is better than a terribly behaved legit service dog. I also think an overcooked steak is better than a world class meatloaf. I'm not a fan of either of them, though.

    ETA: I don't care if people speed on the roads as long as they're decent drivers, because let's face it, most of us (including myself) drive a little bit over the speed limit all of the time. However, if someone were to get pulled over for speeding and then whip out a fake badge pretending to be an undercover agent or detective, I'd agree that it's wrong.
     
  19. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    The thing is, people are forced to make assumptions because we can't legally ask someone if they have a disability. The default assumption most people make if it's not a visible disability is that the person is faking it, but they can't do anything about it. This in turn hurts teams where the handler does not have a visible disability because people assume the same thing about us.

    Has anybody not noticed that the most vocal opponents to fakers in this thread are the SD handlers? Maybe, just maybe, that's because it does and has affected us?

    If I need to fly somewhere on a plane I have to supply a doctors note now. That wasn't true in the past, it isn't applied to people with a physical disability. It only applies to PSDs and that's a direct result of FAKERS.

    I have no health insurance. I have no primary care doctor. Which means that if I want to fly on an airplane I now have the additional expense of going to a doctor, explaining the situation, and hoping they don't want to do a bunch of exams or tests or crap before writing my note. Thanks fakers.
     
  20. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    A service dog does not have to have patches or IDs. By being in a place where you KNOW dogs are not allowed, you ARE impersonating a service dog and a disabled handler.


    This. THIS this this. SO much this! :hail:
     

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