Fake service dogs

[Romy]

I tend to just take the assumption that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Though I wouldn't usually try to take my dog into a place where dogs aren't supposed to be, I used to do that with my bicycle when I used it for transportation. Just take it in, on the assumption that they'd tell me to put it outside if it was a problem.

And I tend to assume, if I see a dog without a SD vest in a place where dogs aren't supposed to be, that it's probably someone using that same theory. We have to remember that most people don't know the laws about SDs, and aren't likely to even consider that they might be mistaken for such.

The thing is, if a business owner sees a dog without a vest, the business owner can't legally ask them to leave because service dogs aren't required to wear ID or uniforms. So, it does put them in a really awkward situation. Most business owners aren't clear on what exactly they are allowed to ask or not, and the fine for violating the ADA is VERY steep. So even if they don't like people bringing pets in, they essentially have to put up with it if people aren't polite enough to just ask.

http://www.ada.gov/enforce.htm

The Department of Justice may file lawsuits in federal court to enforce the ADA, and courts may order compensatory damages and back pay to remedy discrimination if the Department prevails. Under title III, the Department of Justice may also obtain civil penalties of up to $55,000 for the first violation and $110,000 for any subsequent violation.

Any clarification, education, anything people can do to put business owners at ease I think is a good thing. And if you politely ask if your dog can come in, they say yes, and your dog is awesome, that creates a really positive experience for everyone and helps build a positive culture where companion dogs are more welcome in public and places of business.

 

[Xandra]

The thing is, if a business owner sees a dog without a vest, the business owner can't legally ask them to leave because service dogs aren't required to wear ID or uniforms. So, it does put them in a really awkward situation. Most business owners aren't clear on what exactly they are allowed to ask or not, and the fine for violating the ADA is VERY steep. So even if they don't like people bringing pets in, they essentially have to put up with it if people aren't polite enough to just ask.

http://www.ada.gov/enforce.htm



Any clarification, education, anything people can do to put business owners at ease I think is a good thing. And if you politely ask if your dog can come in, they say yes, and your dog is awesome, that creates a really positive experience for everyone and helps build a positive culture where companion dogs are more welcome in public and places of business.

Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Classy

Not any less classy then someone accusing/assuming that someone who takes their dog into a place that "technically" doesnt allow dogs is automatically faking having a SD

besides i was like 18??? I wouldnt dream of saying that now that i am older, i would have just ignored her & kept about my business.

 

[Saeleofu]

Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.

Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought

 

[sparks19]

Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought

uh yeah... this seems like a no brainer. agree.

it may be easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission but what kind of mindset is that.

How about having the decency to just say "Hey... would this be OK?"

I think it's the whole mindset of "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" that is a big problem with this society. "we know we are doing wrong but it's easier to just say OOPS sorry... we know we did wrong but just forgive us OK'

NO ... be a decent person and ASK first.

 

[Xandra]

Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought

Well, sure, but I was talking about what the store owners can do when people DO bring their dogs into establishments.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I came into this thread a little late and honestly have only read the last few pages.

Being a service dog trainer, I'm on the side of "don't bring your pets where pets aren't allowed!" I know as well as anyone that it's annoying not to be able to bring your own pets into all the public places.... my personal dog is just as good in public as the service dogs I train (better than many, in fact) and trained exactly the same way, but still I don't take him where pets aren't allowed.

A lot of good points were already made on this topic, but I wanted to respond to a few statements in particular:

While I agree with some of your post, i do not agree with "a well trained pet doesnt belong in public" why? because its the law? becaue "big brother" says so?

Because a lot of people are allergic to dogs. Because a lot of people are terrified of dogs. Because the majority of pet owners don't clean up after their dogs - including when their dogs shed. The main reason: because your right to having your dog infringes on other peoples' rights to be comfortable in a public place. Service dogs serve a purpose and people with disabilities have a right to equipment that mitigates their disability; but pets technically and legally have no reason to be in public and therefore should not infringe on others' rights.

though I did tear a stupid lady a new one when she rounded the corner at PetsMart (back when I was younger & a WHOLE LOT less patient) & actually tried to order me & my dog to move so she could get by with her appearently dog phobic kid, my response was: "**** you, lady, this is Pet'sMart, not Toy's R Us" LOL.

You're right, it is dumb for dog-phobic people to go to a big-box pet store where they're likely to encounter dogs; I'm sure that the majority of people with dog phobias indeed avoid these places. So what happens when the dog phobic person goes to a store that does not allow dogs, and encounters your dog - who, as a pet, has no right to be there? Again, this infringes on that person's right to frequent businesses where he/she will be comfortable.

Though I agree it is more polite to just ask, the shop can put a "no pets" sign on the door. Or they can say "just so you know, only service animals are allowed in the store" and the handler only has to say "ok", or if the dog is a pet they'd then know to leave... I don't know the rules regarding what is OK to ask but I don't imagine that would violate anything.

The law states that business owners can ask two questions when a person brings a dog into their store: "Is this a service dog?" and "What tasks is it trained to do?" If the owner can't or won't answer these two questions, the business owner may ask the owner to remove the dog. Also if the dog is damaging the business - including misbehaving to the point where it bothers other customers - the business owner may ask the owner to remove the dog.

 

[MandyPug]

Or, people could just not take pets where they don't belong. What a thought

But there are a lot of places where well behaved dogs could possibly be allowed. Like the library. They don't serve food there, generally people don't hang out long in this branch as its small, it's located near a public park and residential area. Why wouldn't they allow dogs? No where at my library is it clearly marked no dogs, it's only in tiny print in a pamphlet that is found inside the library.

Or banks, dogs very well might not be allowed in the banks but I take Izzie in quite often and we socialize puppies there because really they don't say they're not allowed.

Should dogs only ever be in their yard or a car or in a specifically designate dog park? I'll just tell Izzie she's not allowed to go to the bank anymore or to the hardware store because she doesn't belong out of places that are made for dogs specifically. I really think there would be a higher level of training going on if well behaved dogs were allowed more public places. I also think people would be more active too because I know I and many others don't want to leave our dogs tied up outside if we want to go into a shop, so we drive instead.

 

[Dogdragoness]

I think that businesses would be more willing to let in a seemingly well behahaved dog as opposed to a ill behaved one. society needs to understand, a fair number of folks who own dogs consider them their kids (i know i do, since i will never EVER have kids of my own).

that being said, business have a right to decide (esp small, local businesses) who comes into their store, in the small town (small towns in many ways are actually more dog friendly then bigger cities) the owners said they would rather have me & my dogs there then someone with ill behaved kids, because my dogs were so WELL behaved (their wordsm, not mine). Heck, most of those business HAD dogs of their own in store.

 

[sparks19]

Ok... well how about this or that or the other thing.

how about rather than just assuming you just ASK "hey is my dog allowed here" if you have any doubt.

it just really doesn't seem that hard. rather than just "I can do what I want until someone says I can't' how about you just ask if you can before you DO.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I think it's the whole mindset of "ask for forgiveness instead of permission" that is a big problem with this society. "we know we are doing wrong but it's easier to just say OOPS sorry... we know we did wrong but just forgive us OK'

NO ... be a decent person and ASK first.

Amen.

I think decency is very much lacking in society today.

Well, sure, but I was talking about what the store owners can do when people DO bring their dogs into establishments.

Also the problem is that the more people who bring their pets into stores - and the more practiced store owners get at stopping them at the door and asking questions - the more inconvenient it is for people with service dogs to go about their daily business unbothered.

It's kind of like this: I went clothes shopping the other day. Spent a good hour or more in the store, and ended up with several items of clothing. I checked out with the cashier and was on my way out the door, when the stupid security sensors at the door beeped as I walked through. I had to stop what I was doing, go back to the cashier, she had to pull out all of the items from my bag, find the security tag she'd missed, deactivate it, etc. The whole process probably took less than two minutes, but it was incredibly annoying. All I wanted to do was check out and go home.

That's what it would be like when you have a service dog: every employee in every store would stop you and ask if it's a service dog. It doesn't take much time out of your day, but it's an incredible inconvenience.

 

[Saeleofu]

But there are a lot of places where well behaved dogs could possibly be allowed.

But the point is they're not allowed. I'll say it again - if you don't agree, then work to change the laws. Don't just say "Oh, well, I'll do it anyway." Work to change it.

 

[Red Chrome]

This thread has seriously hit a wall. No one is telling anyone to feel the way THEY do about it. Well, the SD only in public period, otherwise it might make SDs look bad. Let me tell you, in my area, it IS the TRUE SDs that make other SDs look bad.

Everyone has an opinion, respect it, like it, dislike it whatever and move on.

ETA- LoLa is in training at this point and I don't ask for permission to enter. She is very well behaved and if they want to ask her to leave, they can. However, I've never had that happen. Training is important for SDs and technically, SDs in training have no more rights than pets from my understanding of the law....so how do all these SDs get trained?

 

[lizzybeth727]

Should dogs only ever be in their yard or a car or in a specifically designate dog park? I'll just tell Izzie she's not allowed to go to the bank anymore or to the hardware store because she doesn't belong out of places that are made for dogs specifically.

Oh come on, I don't think anyone's saying that dogs should only go places that are specifically made for dogs. Seriously, there are a lot of places that allow dogs. I've taken dogs to Tractor Supply, Ace Hardware, Home Depot, Lowe's, that office supply store next to the Target (I can't remember the name! ), not to mention patio restaurants. There's a mall near me that allow dogs in more than half their stores.

But these places have it posted that dogs are allowed. If I were allergic or in some other way needed to avoid dogs, I would know not to go to these stores. This is not the case when we take dogs places that "don't technically" allow dogs without asking.

 

[Dogdragoness]

Ok... well how about this or that or the other thing.

how about rather than just assuming you just ASK "hey is my dog allowed here" if you have any doubt.

it just really doesn't seem that hard. rather than just "I can do what I want until someone says I can't' how about you just ask if you can before you DO.

LOL i still marvel at the amount of folks who see a dog & go "eww nasty!" I mean have they watched the hygenic practices of some of their fellow humans??? I mean kids are exempt because in a lot of ways they dont know any better, but adults do & they are some of the worst offenders ... I mean just how many employees REALLY wash their hands before returning to work???

I bathe & brush my dog before we go anywhere "public" so I know she is clean & hygenic.

I also disagree with the mindset of: The only dogs that should be allowed ANYWHERE besides 'real' dog areas (hardware stores, pet specatilty stores, dog parks etc ...). Also I am sorry to keep harping on kids but my dogs are better behaved then most people's kids (not the really young ones because they know not) I am talking about the ones who act out even when they know better ... & i always find myself thinking "My dogs are less of a disruption then those kids & they arent even allowed." It's a shame because no onee would really know they where there.

 

[lizzybeth727]

ETA- LoLa is in training at this point and I don't ask for permission to enter. She is very well behaved and if they want to ask her to leave, they can. However, I've never had that happen. Training is important for SDs and technically, SDs in training have no more rights than pets from my understanding of the law....so how do all these SDs get trained?

Some states allow SDITs to have public access. You should research your state laws (which you can find on the Assistance Dogs International website) to see what your legal options are.

That said, SDs don't NEED full public access to be trained. Like I said in my last post, there are plenty of places that allow pets where you can train.

 

[ruffiangirl]

Unfortunately, IMO, the purse dog toting people who do no training, far out number those of us that do take the time and effort to train, and will clean up after their dogs. Just as the morons with flexis out number those who have the brain to think "maybe whilst I'm in the store I should keep my dog on a shorter leash. Sad fact is that those people have ruined it for the rest of us. I have yet to go in a petsmart and not find a puddle of pee because some asshat couldn't be bothered to pay attention/clean up after his/her dog. You think that these people wouldn't bring their dogs to other places?

 

[sparks19]

LOL i still marvel at the amount of folks who see a dog & go "eww nasty!" I mean have they watched the hygenic practices of some of their fellow humans??? I mean kids are exempt because in a lot of ways they dont know any better, but adults do & they are some of the worst offenders ... I mean just how many employees REALLY wash their hands before returning to work???

I bathe & brush my dog before we go anywhere "public" so I know she is clean & hygenic.

I also disagree with the mindset of: The only dogs that should be allowed ANYWHERE besides 'real' dog areas (hardware stores, pet specatilty stores, dog parks etc ...). Also I am sorry to keep harping on kids but my dogs are better behaved then most people's kids (not the really young ones because they know not) I am talking about the ones who act out even when they know better ... & i always find myself thinking "My dogs are less of a disruption then those kids & they arent even allowed." It's a shame because no onee would really know they where there.

Wait... What did this have to do with my post? All I said is ASK before you bring your pet into a store where you A) don't know if they are allowed or B) KNOW they aten't allowed. No where did I say that dogs are ewww yucky or anything like that. So uhhhhh yeah LOL no idea

You can claim injustice all you want but you are still aware of the rules. It is not hard to just ask HEY can i bring my pet here and if they say no... Respect it.

There are Places I am not allowed to bring hannah regardless of the fact that she is a very well mannered child. I don't just say "well screw it, they can just deal with it or make me leave". i don't bring her to places she is not allowed.

 

[Saeleofu]

Training is important for SDs and technically, SDs in training have no more rights than pets from my understanding of the law....so how do all these SDs get trained?

It depends on the state. Some states afford trainers the same rights as SD handlers. Some only do so for trainers on their special list (like my state). Some don't allow it period.

In my state, only program trainers are allowed access with SDiT. How did I train Logan? Initially we went to pet stores, hardware stores, feed stores, etc. When he was advanced enough to move on, I asked permission. Some places I had to ask permission every time I went. Some places granted me permission on a long-term basis and didn't make me ask each time. Some places I only went to once (like when I went to see Les Mis in KC) and asked permission before I ever made solidi plans to go. I stayed in Motel 6 or other dog-friendly motels when I traveled (still do, actually. I <3 Baymont Inn and Suites).

 

[Shakou]

Unfortunately, IMO, the purse dog toting people who do no training, far out number those of us that do take the time and effort to train, and will clean up after their dogs. Just as the morons with flexis out number those who have the brain to think "maybe whilst I'm in the store I should keep my dog on a shorter leash. Sad fact is that those people have ruined it for the rest of us. I have yet to go in a petsmart and not find a puddle of pee because some asshat couldn't be bothered to pay attention/clean up after his/her dog. You think that these people wouldn't bring their dogs to other places?

YES YES YES!! And it's THIS exact reason why most businesses DON'T allow pets! People say "my dogs cause less trouble then kids do", but how the hell is the business owner suppose to know that when they don't know you or your dog? Why should they care? It's their business.

Also I am sorry to keep harping on kids but my dogs are better behaved then most people's kids (not the really young ones because they know not) I am talking about the ones who act out even when they know better ...

And it's kids like that who usually grow up into adults that think they are above the law and have some right to cram their dogs into the faces of the public, weather the public likes it or not.