Ethics of breeding certain breeds

[Romy]

If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.

On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.

 

[chinchow]

Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do.

 

[Novel_Weims]

Dont'f forget, BREED CLUBS are ahead of AKC. They have ahold of the standards before the kennel clubs do.

Agreed.

 

[Psyfalcon]

But the AKC appoints the judges for the all breed shows.

It goes in circles really. If I entered a German line dog in Westminister, they would chase me out of the ring, yet those dogs are arguably closer to the American standard than our own GSDs. Field line setters? You couldn't get in the door. (I know of little beyond GSDs and sporting dogs when it comes to showing)

The breeders keep breeding more angular dogs, or for more feathering and size and the judges keep rewarding it.

Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.

 

[Georgygirl]

If judges did not reward poorly bred dogs with grand champion titles, people would not do it.

On a somewhat related note, why on earth the did AKC make brindle boston bull terriers a disqualifying color? There have been brindle bostons forever, and breeding black and whites to black and whites tends to create deaf animals. Personally, I prefer the brindle ones when they can be found.

Actually, I think brindles are allowed as long as they have the required white markings.

Color and Markings
Brindle, seal, or black with white markings. Brindle is preferred ONLY if all other qualities are equal. (Note: SEAL DEFINED. Seal appears black except it has a red cast when viewed in the sun or bright light.) Disqualify: Solid black, solid brindle or solid seal without required white markings. Gray or liver colors.

Required Markings: White muzzle band, white blaze between the eyes, white forechest.

Desired Markings: White muzzle band, even white blaze between the eyes and over the head, white collar, white forechest, white on part or whole of forelegs and hind legs below the hocks. (Note: A representative specimen should not be penalized for not possessing "Desired Markings."

A dog with a preponderance of white on the head or body must possess sufficient merit otherwise to counteract its deficiencies.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/boston_terrier/index.cfm

I also am a fan of the brindles, but they are hard to come by.

 

[schurpug]

Whats easier to fix? Tell ALL the breeders to reverse their last 20 years of work and bring only "classic" looking dogs, or start replacing judges who keep selecting the most over done individuals. Even if they just chose the medium range of American show dogs, GSDs and Setters would slowly start coming back from their extremes.

I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.

"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.

However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.

 

[showpug]

I've always been a supporter of a system in which breeds/assignments/licenses can be taken away from judges for poor judging, like the judge who put up a special for Best of Breed literally without ever having put his hands on the dog (he brought the BOB class in - 3 specials dogs, 1 specials bitch, the Winners Dog, and the Winners Bitch - looked at their heads/fronts and profiles, took them around the ring 1.5 times... and then pointed to quite possible the worst special in the ring for Best of Breed - who happened to have a well known handler on him) or the judge who - and I kid you not - put up a ONE EYED class dog for Winners Dog and BEST OF BREED over some nice specials (at least one was a BIS winner)... that dog later had the breed win stripped from him.

"Mistakes" like that are inexcusable.

However - I do not like the idea of starting to remove breeds simply because a judge who is "selecting the most ___ individuals". Standards are purposely left somewhat open for interpretation - that means that your idea of overdone is not going to be the same as the next breeder, owner, or handler... so I don't think its appropriate to start removing judges simply because they are putting up dogs that you, personally, don't like.

We know the notorious one eyed pug all too well. lol!

 

[Psyfalcon]

Now this might be getting a bit off topic and onto intent and history vs show dogs, but to illustrate my point...

English Setter Standard on Coat:

Flat without curl or wooliness. Feathering on ears, chest, abdomen, underside of thighs, back of all legs and on the tail of good length but not so excessive as to hide true lines and movement or to affect the dog's appearance or function as a sporting dog.

A Champion Setter

Compare that to field line setters who can still do their job, or to historical setter paintings. That much fur ruins function unless you get the scissors out.

 

[Miakoda]

It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.

 

[showpug]

It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.

I have a friend that shows Deerhounds in AKC conformation and those very same dogs are VERY successful with lure coursing. I think to say that 99.9% of the dogs is way too general of a statement! I think you would be surprised at the number of fanciers that actually do care about the total package.

 

[tempura tantrum]

It's no secret the 99.9% of the so called "working" dogs that are shown in the AKC couldn't do their job if their life depended on it. Compare all the true working dogs to their show dog version & the differences can't be ingored. Even the greyound is just an empty shell of it's true racing brother.

The breeder I got my Shibas from has an Akita that works as a perimeter dog on her considerable acreage. This dog has scared off foxes, deer, bear, even cougars. (As well as human trespassers). In her own words she said, "without him, I wouldn't be able to live here." Now here's a working dog that can do EXACTLY what he was bred for.

Several of her Shibas are successful wild boar hunters as well. Almost all of them are fabulous dispatchers of vermin and wild fowl.

OF COURSE there are those breeds out there that have been absolutely sidetracked- but I wouldn't say that it's 99.9% of them.

 

[bluebirdmcfc]

I think one of the only breeds that HAS to have a c-section to deliver is the English Bulldog.

The majority of all the pugs I know free whelp.

Not strictly true, my Bulldog has had 2 litters both self whelped.
She is now spayed and enjoying her retirement from being a mummy and show dog.

 

[showpug]

Not strictly true, my Bulldog has had 2 litters both self whelped.
She is now spayed and enjoying her retirement from being a mummy and show dog.

That is fantastic! I wish I would have the guts to let my bullie free whelp if I decide to breed her, but I don't. She will be a c-section no matter what.

 

[RD]

I wouldn't say 99.9% of the show dogs couldn't do the job they were bred for, but I DO feel that the working ability of herding breeds and some working breeds has been greatly diminished in show lines. Most show-bred Border Collies are worthless on farms. Show-bred Filas are soft-tempered and massive, they couldn't do the job they were originally bred to do.

Can there be AKC registered working dogs? Of course. I'm sure there are even some show-bred dogs who can pull their own weight on a farm. But AKC (or any conformation-based venue) isn't about working ability or what's actually inside that beautiful head, and that is why a lot of people in *working* breeds don't support conformation-based venues. Asking the show ring to pay attention to function is like asking the fashion industry to focus on inner beauty. It just doesn't work. Pretty wins, standards be damned. That's why so many breeds have gotten so overdone.

 

[bluebirdmcfc]

The first litter she made the decision, it was all over by 6.30 am, woke up and was faced with 5 cleaned up, feeding healthy baby bulldogs.
The second litter, 2 seasons later she did it again, obviously didn't fancy an operation !! :lol-sign:

 

[Miakoda]

I wouldn't say 99.9% of the show dogs couldn't do the job they were bred for, but I DO feel that the working ability of herding breeds and some working breeds has been greatly diminished in show lines. Most show-bred Border Collies are worthless on farms. Show-bred Filas are soft-tempered and massive, they couldn't do the job they were originally bred to do.

Can there be AKC registered working dogs? Of course. I'm sure there are even some show-bred dogs who can pull their own weight on a farm. But AKC (or any conformation-based venue) isn't about working ability or what's actually inside that beautiful head, and that is why a lot of people in *working* breeds don't support conformation-based venues. Asking the show ring to pay attention to function is like asking the fashion industry to focus on inner beauty. It just doesn't work. Pretty wins, standards be damned. That's why so many breeds have gotten so overdone.

Good post. I apologize for my exaggerated percentage, but I still stand by that the vast majority of those "working" dogs shown in the AKC workign classes couldn't do their job well if at alll.

And I LOVE the quote that I put in bold. Mind if I use it sometime?

 

[RD]

Oh, I see your point and I totally agree with you. Heck even Greyhounds bred for show can't run like the ones bred to race. The structure of the show dog is just all wrong, apparently. Plus the fact that the show dogs don't seem to have the drive of the track racers. It's just odd to me . . .

And sure you can, lol

 

[ihartgonzo]

Honestly, I feel there HAS to be a happy medium somewhere, and breeders should strive for that as much as possible. I know plenty of nice, well-meaning breeders who just went off the deep-end with showing their dogs and value a CH title 1000x more than any working title. Breeders also tend to take the standard and exaggerate it as much as possible, as seen in the "sloped" topline of show GSD's - which is beyond irresponsible. I do believe that kennel clubs have a responsibility to promote the working dog just as much/more than promoting the show dog... unfortunately the AKC fails miserably at that, IMHO.

More example picssss! One of these dogs is not like the others:

Only one of these dogs is a show Champion with no working titles/merits/experience/drive whatsoever. The other 3 have herding titles, but no show titles. =D Reeaally difficult, right?

My point is that Border Collies come in a variety of sizes/colors/looks, but the one parallel of all 3 of the workings dogs is the intensity, the look of intelligence, the general outline, & the style. Which that show Champion has none of. It is unmistakable.

IMO, a BC breeder can show their dogs as they please, but working drive should never be compromised & should completely come before appearance, as a priority. They're working dogs, not companion dogs... and that goes for a LOT of other breeds! If we're talking about health problems being bred into dogs for show purposes, let's also talk about: GSD's, Labs, etc. Not just the bully breeds are being bred to dangerous extremes in the show world.

 

[ihartgonzo]

the vast majority of those "working" dogs shown in the AKC workign classes couldn't do their job well if at alll.

100% backed. C:

 

[RD]

Not to take this too far off topic, but I feel that the "happy medium" in BCs* is breeding dogs that can do the job. If they have incorrect structure for the job, they won't be as good at it and therefore usually won't be bred. A dog built like the show dogs would be all bone and coat, they'd be ready to collapse after an outrun because they just aren't built right for work. If you look at the top trial winners or highly efficient farm dogs, they're all built similarly. They LOOK different, but structurally there are a lot of similarities. None of them are built like that show champion, for starters. XD

Breeding any breed "for the show ring" (ie: fads instead of the standard) is breeding AWAY from function. I've seen Rottweilers that lumber around the ring like Mastiffs, Dobermans that don't have enough substance to stop an attacking butterfly, and Golden Retrievers that would sink and drown in a koi pond. I'm not saying they're all like that, but it is apparent to me that fads are often more important in the show ring than the standard is. I believe this accounts for at least SOME of the "transformation" breeds like Bulldogs and GSDs and Border Collies have gone through.


*I know this has nothing to do with the brachy breeds and no I'm not insanely centered on my breed and yes I know there are other breeds out there. I just use Border Collies as an example because that's what a I and lot of other people are familiar with.