Ethics of breeding certain breeds
- Thread starter Shannerson
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You, like many others, have been sucked into the Animal Rights Black Hole of twisted viewpoints regarding the selective breeding of dogs and other domestic animals.
This is how they divide and conquer.
If you think that outlawing selective breeding will further the welfare of domestic animals, you are seriously wrong.
It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate AR goal. No domestic animals.
This is how they divide and conquer.
If you think that outlawing selective breeding will further the welfare of domestic animals, you are seriously wrong.
It's only a stepping stone to the ultimate AR goal. No domestic animals.
Wow, where did that come from?! Yikes. Why are you jumping on me like that? Has someone been sipping a little Kool Aid?
My post could not have been more "gentle" in my inquiry. I said is it ETHICAL and never said it should be OUTLAWED. I don't even know any animal rights people. I simply think it COULD be unethical to purposely breed a dog with health problems. I am learning different view points. Whose post did you read anyway because yours makes no sense when you are quoting mine. I simply want to learn and hear what others think.
AND you did not even reply to my question just attacked me. So I guess you are on board with people breeding whatever they want even if they produce unhealthy animals, or am I reading into your post.
My post could not have been more "gentle" in my inquiry. I said is it ETHICAL and never said it should be OUTLAWED. I don't even know any animal rights people. I simply think it COULD be unethical to purposely breed a dog with health problems. I am learning different view points. Whose post did you read anyway because yours makes no sense when you are quoting mine. I simply want to learn and hear what others think.
AND you did not even reply to my question just attacked me. So I guess you are on board with people breeding whatever they want even if they produce unhealthy animals, or am I reading into your post.
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First off....GEAUX LSU!! 
And yes, all the Ugas have been EBs & it's amazing to see the evolution of them. But I've found that just by looking at pictures in EB books of history that the breed has changed a lot & for the worse in recent years.
The original Uga had a very similar body structure to our OEB. Here's a side by side comparison of our OEB & our now deceased EB:
Our OEB is actually a very athletic animal (although he does tend to overheat faster than the APBTs on hot days). He goes for 2 mile walk/jogs & then still comes home with leftover energy for 30 minutes of fetch, flirtpole activity or springpole activity. He's borderline downright hyperactive & MUST have something to do at all times. Our EB was the polar opposite. Hopping off the couch & going 20 ft. to the water bowl took almost all his energy & he had to stop & lie down for a short break on his way back to the couch. The short run after a poop in the yard was his exercise for the day & he wanted nothing more than that. Any amount of walking resulted in serious breathing issues. And this was an almost AKC champion showdog but all the judges said his nose wasn't "pushed in enough" to their liking. Geez, had it been any more "in" it would've been inverted.
And yes, all the Ugas have been EBs & it's amazing to see the evolution of them. But I've found that just by looking at pictures in EB books of history that the breed has changed a lot & for the worse in recent years.
The original Uga had a very similar body structure to our OEB. Here's a side by side comparison of our OEB & our now deceased EB:
Our OEB is actually a very athletic animal (although he does tend to overheat faster than the APBTs on hot days). He goes for 2 mile walk/jogs & then still comes home with leftover energy for 30 minutes of fetch, flirtpole activity or springpole activity. He's borderline downright hyperactive & MUST have something to do at all times. Our EB was the polar opposite. Hopping off the couch & going 20 ft. to the water bowl took almost all his energy & he had to stop & lie down for a short break on his way back to the couch. The short run after a poop in the yard was his exercise for the day & he wanted nothing more than that. Any amount of walking resulted in serious breathing issues. And this was an almost AKC champion showdog but all the judges said his nose wasn't "pushed in enough" to their liking.
Geez, had it been any more "in" it would've been inverted.
Hey Miakoda,
I was going to mention the OEB too. I've got one at home, and though the standards are a little haphazard and there is a little too much room for error, I think that this breed makes sense ... re-creating the bull of old, to be healthier, much less breathing problems, and over a dog that can actually get around, and probably do what it was bred to do years and years ago. In my personal opinion, I think that EB breeders should be breeding towards a goal of health overall. I do believe the goals should be longer muzzle, smaller heads, correct angulation, and of course, testing for genetic diseases, to which their is a huge list for this poor dog (heart, knees, hips, spine, eyes, etc).
Not the greatest pic, and he's young there, so he's filled out a little more. Not my idea of the best OEB (he's too lanky, looks more mastiff than bull and his head isn't quite big enough - hermes line) but you can see the major different in structure and over all well being, which I think EB breeders should be working towards.
Shannerson,
I guess I am in agreement with most people here. I always said that if a pup can only be born by c-section, well, this may sound harsh, but it wasn't meant to be. And I am not talking emergency c-section on breeds that can whelp naturally, I'm talking about the brach breeds who require c-sections as if they were a natural thing. I'm not saying that these breeds should be banned, however, I am saying that breeders need to re-think where their breed is headed and what they can do to "better it" healthwise. Don't get me wrong, Frenchies are one of my favorite breeds, and I do like bulldogs (but not the ones with the huge nose ropes, and poor rear angualtion), but I really do think its time that breeders buckled down, and tried to produce "better" dogs. JMO
I was going to mention the OEB too. I've got one at home, and though the standards are a little haphazard and there is a little too much room for error, I think that this breed makes sense ... re-creating the bull of old, to be healthier, much less breathing problems, and over a dog that can actually get around, and probably do what it was bred to do years and years ago. In my personal opinion, I think that EB breeders should be breeding towards a goal of health overall. I do believe the goals should be longer muzzle, smaller heads, correct angulation, and of course, testing for genetic diseases, to which their is a huge list for this poor dog (heart, knees, hips, spine, eyes, etc).
Not the greatest pic, and he's young there, so he's filled out a little more. Not my idea of the best OEB (he's too lanky, looks more mastiff than bull and his head isn't quite big enough - hermes line) but you can see the major different in structure and over all well being, which I think EB breeders should be working towards.
Shannerson,
I guess I am in agreement with most people here. I always said that if a pup can only be born by c-section, well, this may sound harsh, but it wasn't meant to be. And I am not talking emergency c-section on breeds that can whelp naturally, I'm talking about the brach breeds who require c-sections as if they were a natural thing. I'm not saying that these breeds should be banned, however, I am saying that breeders need to re-think where their breed is headed and what they can do to "better it" healthwise. Don't get me wrong, Frenchies are one of my favorite breeds, and I do like bulldogs (but not the ones with the huge nose ropes, and poor rear angualtion), but I really do think its time that breeders buckled down, and tried to produce "better" dogs. JMO
First off....GEAUX LSU!!
I mostly joined this thread because Uga was mentioned, and I guess I straddle the fence on this topic.
I absolutely love the looks and the temperaments of the English bulldogs and Pugs. When a thread goes around asking for our favorite 3 or 5 breeds, these 2 always end up in mine. I have owned a Pug.
I guess I agree with the opinion that breeders should be trying to breed towards healthier dogs. I don't know that I would ever go out and buy one of these breeds due to the potential health issues (but our Pug had no breathing problems at all), but I sure would hate to see them go away. I would think most of the health issues could be addressed by the breeders.
Part of the reason that I'm not sure that I would buy one of these breeds, though, is because I'm not sure if I'll go through a breeder again for any breed of dog. We adopted from the shelter and have been very happy and probably will do that the next time we get a puppy or dog. Beyond that, opinions and situations change, so I don't know what I'll be looking for that much farther down the road.
Chinchow- the idea of animal rights vs. animal welfare is that *animal rights* lean more towards the direction of PETA-types. IE: it is unethical to OWN animals because they shouldn't be OWNED at all- they should have the same rights as a human being. While this no doubt, SOUNDS really good, in effect, the animal *rights* path is the one that eventually destroys domestic animal ownership.
I don't personally view my dogs as property- but in order to have any sort of control or decisions regarding their welfare, I NEED them to be viewed as such by the government. Those that support animal *welfare* recognize this. They aren't out to end domestic pet ownership- which I'm sure YOU wouldn't like either. They still DO care that animals are treated humanely.
THAT is what Red is talking about.
I don't personally view my dogs as property- but in order to have any sort of control or decisions regarding their welfare, I NEED them to be viewed as such by the government. Those that support animal *welfare* recognize this. They aren't out to end domestic pet ownership- which I'm sure YOU wouldn't like either. They still DO care that animals are treated humanely.
THAT is what Red is talking about.
I get your point about groups such as PETA, but I wish you hadn't phrased it like this. There is entirely too much of this going around - when Person A disagree with Person B, A attributes B's ideas/position/theory not to a simple difference of opinion but to B's enslavement to groupthink--the media has brainwashed B about pit bulls, the animal rights people have sucked B into their black hole, etc.
I don't think the EB needs to go away. I think it needs to go back to how it used to be. Breeders nowadays are going for lower to the ground, wider dogs with larger heads with a more "pushed in" face because that's also what judges are placing now. IMO, they need to get them back to a breed that can actually function well on a daily basis & improve the health issues. By breeding for only size & looks, breeders will only kill off the breed in a few short years rather than preserve it.
And BrandyB, here are a few more pics for you:
S
I'm just responding to the OP here...
As a RL Pug Breeder/Owner/Handler and the owner of a Pet Frenchie, I think you have been misinformed as to the severity of the problems.
Like any dog, when it is extremely hot, you have to be careful to keep them from overheating. But, in my experience with the breed (which is rather extensive), it's more the humidity that is a problem than anything. But even so - mine can go out in the summer and run around for a bit and play without a problem. My Frenchie LOVES the heat - if it's 90 degrees outside, he'll find a sunny spot and go nap in it. He just loves it.
As someone else posted, Pugs can run agility without a problem... most of them anyways. And I plan on running my specials boy in it as soon as he is retired from the Conformation ring.
Sorry if this isn't very clearly written - I'm kind of tired and I don't think I'm thinking clearly. haha...
As a RL Pug Breeder/Owner/Handler and the owner of a Pet Frenchie, I think you have been misinformed as to the severity of the problems.
Like any dog, when it is extremely hot, you have to be careful to keep them from overheating. But, in my experience with the breed (which is rather extensive), it's more the humidity that is a problem than anything. But even so - mine can go out in the summer and run around for a bit and play without a problem. My Frenchie LOVES the heat - if it's 90 degrees outside, he'll find a sunny spot and go nap in it. He just loves it.
As someone else posted, Pugs can run agility without a problem... most of them anyways. And I plan on running my specials boy in it as soon as he is retired from the Conformation ring.
Sorry if this isn't very clearly written - I'm kind of tired and I don't think I'm thinking clearly. haha...
I do find it a little strange that some breed standard traits can be health liabilities and just look good. But, having owned a pug (and a poorly bred one at that), I'd have to say the breathing problems of squished nose dogs aren't that bad. Sure, my pug made snuffling noises and didn't like walks on hot days. But that's what air conditioning is for.
Still, though, I wish that some breeds' traits were a little more practical. For example, I'd love it if Shih-Tzus had less squished faces so their eyes weren't so prone to problems. And why do maltese, in all their cute fluffy glory, have to be so darn WHITE? :lol-sign:
Still, though, I wish that some breeds' traits were a little more practical. For example, I'd love it if Shih-Tzus had less squished faces so their eyes weren't so prone to problems. And why do maltese, in all their cute fluffy glory, have to be so darn WHITE? :lol-sign:
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I'm just going to pull out this one question and give my opinion.
I think it's absolutely wrong for breeders to breed for any traits that usually cause health problems. I have met some chows who have been bred for such a heavy head and heavy bone that they wheeze as they walk and can barely make it around a show ring (and for a chow, that's not very far) .. and yet, unfortunately, some of these chows end up as champions. I think it's pathetic, personally.
I wouldn't pick out any specific breeds and say "this entire breed is wrong" .. but there ARE breeders in various breeds who go for extremes to the detriment of the dogs. I find this wrong. It has nothing to do with animal right groups. To me, it's 100% about the dogs and what's being done to them. And I'm not just talking about breathing problems. We can probably all think of a color/coat/shape in a number of breeds that creates problems and yet some breeders continue to produce these overdone dogs because they like the look or can make some money from it.
Personally I'd like to see all dogs be able to live a long healthy life without breathing problems, leg problems, etc. .. and to be dogs that can run and play and be active like dogs are supposed to be.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I think it's absolutely wrong for breeders to breed for any traits that usually cause health problems. I have met some chows who have been bred for such a heavy head and heavy bone that they wheeze as they walk and can barely make it around a show ring (and for a chow, that's not very far) .. and yet, unfortunately, some of these chows end up as champions. I think it's pathetic, personally.
I wouldn't pick out any specific breeds and say "this entire breed is wrong" .. but there ARE breeders in various breeds who go for extremes to the detriment of the dogs. I find this wrong. It has nothing to do with animal right groups. To me, it's 100% about the dogs and what's being done to them. And I'm not just talking about breathing problems. We can probably all think of a color/coat/shape in a number of breeds that creates problems and yet some breeders continue to produce these overdone dogs because they like the look or can make some money from it.
Personally I'd like to see all dogs be able to live a long healthy life without breathing problems, leg problems, etc. .. and to be dogs that can run and play and be active like dogs are supposed to be.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
