Dutch Shepherds

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by skittledoo, Mar 3, 2013.

  1. skittledoo

    skittledoo Crazy naked dog lady

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    I'm definitely curious more about this breed.

    One day down the road I'd really like to try out Schutzhund. I don't necessarily know that any of my current dogs would be good at it, Cricket maybe... but then again she doesn't seem to really be that interested in any bite work that I've tried to do with her so probably not. Would be nice to get my hands wet though to see if this is something I would want to commit more to down the road with a future dog.

    I really don't know what kind of dog I'm going to end up with next. There are multiple breeds I really like for varying different reasons so it'll honestly depend on where I'm at in life and what I'm really looking for in a dog at the time and what my goals would be with said dog. So... on that note, I decided to venture out and learn more about other breeds for now especially breeds that would do well in different avenues I'd like to pursue: Rally/OB, Disc (currently starting Cricket in disc), SAR, maybe schutzhund if I end up moving somewhere with a good club and if I feel I can commit to it. I tend to like to dabble in different things and I know with schutzhund you have to be absolutely committed to it which is why I'd love to get out there and see it more in person, etc before deciding if I would 100% be interested. It's definitely intriguing to me though.

    Which brings me to the topic of Dutch Shepherds. I know quite a bit about GSDs and Belgians, but Dutch Shepherd's I don't know too much about. We have one that started coming to my work recently and he is a serious stunner and I'm definitely a sucker for brindle, but I'd like to know more about their temperament and drive. Where do they compare with GSDs and Belgian breeds? Do they tend to be SUPER drivey? Tell me what you know. How do they tend to do with other dogs, cats, kids? Are they prone to DA, DR, separation anxiety? How do the different lines tend to compare to each other? I want to know the good, the bad and the ugly.

    Definitely not deciding right now if I want a dutchie down the road, but definitely interested in learning more.
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    First step, you'd have to have a real breed to answer this question.

    :rofl1: JK

    Seriously though, it absolutely depends on what you're drawn to, the AKC/FCI/UKC show/sport dutch or the work/bitesport KNPV and so forth.

    Over all, in my experience, they're very similar to malinois, more so than GSDs, you'll find a majority of working/sport bred have been interbred without purebred pedigree priority so variety is a given. It's definitely a breed to be bought on line/kennel, not breed alone, imo.

    I can PM you a kennel I have considered putting on my "someday" list though.
     
  3. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yeah, the thing is, this is going to so depend on what population of DS you mean. The FCI dogs are no longer terribly closely related to the KNPV lines in Holland, IMO. In fact, KNPV can be kind of their own thing, really, whether they're stripey or brown.

    Blossom is half KNPV lines, and that means that she does indeed have some brindle dogs in her pedigree, as well as at least one GSD and a Groenendael. The KNPV Dutchies are the result of an open registry, so they're not registrable with the FCI or AKC. They're most commonly mixed with Malinois and GSDs, although from the appearance of some of the dogs, it's quite clear there are some more obscure breeds floating around that gene pool, :lol-sign:.

    I know literally nothing about the AKC/FCI lines. I do know that KNPV dogs have a reputation for being asocial and handler aggressive, and physically they are often quite large and powerful, often thickly built. That said, you can find a lot of variety, I'm sure, depending on what each kennel strives to produce. I mean, Blossom is a full 50% KNPV lines and is none of those things, temperament wise or structurally. *shrug* lol I believe that Riley and Aura are KNPV bred, maybe Jen will be of some help. Also, CharlieDog may have some info on how her girl Indy is bred and what's she like.

    But, FWIW, Blossom and her littermates are typical Mals, LOL. So I think that's somewhat close to what you're looking at.
     
  4. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    LOL I just saw this... yeah. That's kind of the problem.:lol-sign:
     
  5. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    They're hard workers who work best in defense, they aren't as play motivated as malinois (generally speaking) and additionally can be troubling in obedience, plus they either have awesome noses or totally lack interest, again this is generally speaking in reference to those I have known which were mostly all related (I really disliked the FCI/UKC dutch I've known) and exceptions do occur especially with such an open gene pool.

    As far as pets they are devoted but yes, not exactly soft.

    I loved, loved, loved my TDs dutch but he ended up selling him to a working home and bought another malinois for sport. He was getting too big for the handler, physically, and just not offering the drives and enjoyment in sport training that he was looking for. The dog excelled at work however and thats how we got Q. :)
     
  6. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    Really great information in this thread, will bookmark for myself, too. All I really know about Dutch Shepherds is that I don't think I would ever be capable of handling one, but I really, really want Indy :D

    You may want to PM Falon if she doesn't see this thread. She had a Dutch Shepherd not long ago.
     
  7. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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    I'm interested in learning more about this breed as well. I briefly met my first dutchie at a trade show a few weeks ago :D I was kind of enamored with that dog. The owner was standing talking to someone and he was sitting behind her just absolutely INTENT and focused on the dog toys hanging on the wall. Really cool dog.

    I'd love to hear more about how they are with other dogs, living with other dogs, etc? I tried researching but there wasn't much I could find.
     
  8. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I'd probably have to quote everyone in this thread if I started quoting, so I'm just going to try to remember what I can.

    From what I've been able to find out about Indy's pedigree (or lackthereof) she's got about 1/4 KNPV dogs on her fathers side, which is about the extent I know of his actual pedigree. So there are definitely some brown dogs in her lines. She's very much like a Mal in drive. Out of drive, she's bitchy with bitches. She's bitey. She's prone to alligator rolling on tugs.

    When she's on, she's effing on though. Beautiful obedience, flawless focus. When she's feeling ornery though, she's a bitch. She does appear to becoming more dog selective, and doesn't have a particular fondness for certain other bitches. Which is common. She gets along fairly well with everyone really, but what I mean is that she will push a dogs buttons until she finds a weakness and then she exploits that and it's game on.

    Her mothers side is straight american sport/police dogs. She was bred to be a drug dog for a police department. There was a bit of a mess as far as someone owing someone else money (politics in a particular club I'm not in, and have no desire to know more than that) and she and a littermate were given to the TD of that club as payment. Her littermate was kept as a PPD (and does well at his job, from what I hear) and she was then sold to MY TD as a possible drug dog, owing to her original intent and pedigree.

    She washed out of drug training because she didn't really care about working away from the handler. So that was how I acquired her. She searches for me just fine, so I'm not sure if it was training technique (or again, lackthereof) or how the handler works, because for me, she's been nothing but TRY. And she's full of TRY. Which is one of the best things about her. Even if she's getting it wrong, she's not afraid to try again, and so far I've found very little quit in her, despite the original assessment. Her nose seems to work just fine for me though, is what I mean, lol.

    She's very Mal-ish. She's a pace-pace-pacer. She's got an off switch in her crate when I'm gone, and when I'm here in her crate, but when I first pull up to the house, she fires off. She's a very quiet dog except for at that time. She's much more into watching something happen than doing, though she's perfectly content to set stuff into motion and THEN watch. But out of the crate, it's pacing and walking around like Backup with a toy stuffed in her mouth.

    She's incredibly fast and can be incredibly stubborn/hardheaded, which is something I want/need. She's never done bitework, because of several factors, but I do know she could do it, though I'm not sure if she could get above club level. She's grabby with the legs, and chewy on a wedge (with me.) She'd probably be one of those dogs who wouldn't care where they got a bite, so long as they got one.

    She can be a handful. She can be loud, mouthy and stubborn. She'll talk back. She blows me off in obedience routines regularly. Other stuff we do though, she's 100% work. I think she just finds routines boring and lame.

    My next (planned) dog will be a Dutch, and I'll probably never have another GSD, but in all honesty, most of the Dutches I've met (which is just a few, a most of them are KNPV bred working for Police Departments) they're very much like Malinois, and if you don't think you can handle a Mal, I wouldn't get a Dutch. They can be no-touch dogs. Indy isn't no-touch, which is a priority with her, but she could care less about other people, and she's actually not too fond of my husband.
     
  9. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Their excess of size alone is a healthy deterrent to be aware of. While you can fine smaller dutch they commonly boast size as an advantage.

    I will agree most dutch I know are very malinois like, often because they're so interbred. LOL I often hear the pros of being a bit less frantic and a bit more of thinkers are offset with their sheer strength and at times willful behavior.
     
  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Mostly because very few people keep these kind of dogs as pets or even just house dogs.
     
  11. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    This is something I forgot about, because Indy is perfectly Malinois sized. Her brother is a horse though, but I've heard her sister is smaller than her. Most of the ones I've met have been not exactly enormous, but sizable. They don't seem to be quite as "pocket rocket" sized as some of the Belgians can be. And yeah, most of them are quite beefy. I've seen more refined looking dogs online, and Indy is particularly refined looking to me. Some of them can be coarse looking dogs, though I'm sure that's more to do with lines than overall Dutchie-ness.

    I can't really comment on the frantic-ness, because I don't think I've ever met more than a couple Mals in real life, and they were no touch police dogs, but from online reports, Indy is not nearly as frantic as some Mals.

    And yes, she is, at times, frustratingly willful.
     
  12. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    I will be back later today to do a full post. I bought a Dutchie to do SAR with, started Schutzhund with him and now have a working line GSD I do a wide number of sports with. I also work for a company that trains and handles bomb detection dogs so I work with a HUGE number of Mals every day (along with GSDs and some DSs).

    In general, based on what you want the dog for, I would strongly recommend not going for a DS unless you are VERY knowledgeable about the specific lines they are coming from. GSDs, even extreme drive ones, can make great house pets. Mals are tolerable, DSs tend to be more difficult although I did it, it was NOT easy.

    Will be back later with more direct comparisons of breed. Plus, all that being said, I am most likely getting a Mal for my next Schutzhund dog even though my GSD is by far the best dog I've worked personally.
     
  13. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    My experience with Dutchies is that they are an in-between, but they can be at ends of the spectrum. A friend has several that she imported from Van Leeuwen as well as one from Vrijheid. While drivey, she reports them to be excellent house dogs. Another friend has a Vrijheid pup about 10mo or so and find him to be a good worker, energetic, but a good house dog. All of these males are quite large, but the females not so much.

    One of my favorite dogs was a Dutchie that a friend had. He was bombproof and amazing with children but had enough of a civil side that could turn on when necessary. He was a Malinois sized dog. I wanted a clone of him so badly. He was bred in Michigan but his pedigree was unknown.
     
  14. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    I really like the look and sound of some of the Vrijheid dogs... maybe if I ever wanted to go stripey... lol
     
  15. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Stripey is the new brown. :p
     
  16. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    That's the kennel I was going to PM about. Great dogs from what I see.
     
  17. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    Everybody I know that has dealt with them has nothing but good things to say and are very happy with their dogs. It would be one of the places I'd go to look if I was going to get one.

    A friend in Minneapolis has a nice Van Leeuwen bitch that he plans to breed eventually once she titles in Mondio. I've really been impressed with their dogs! They do require that you pick up pups in person, though, so be ready to go on vacation to Holland if you want to get one directly from them.
     
  18. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    We had a client who had a DS that was a police dog dropout and was pretty much a slightly-more reserved lab with a DS suit on. I guess that just reinforces the "variety" point everyone is making.
     
  19. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    A friend of mine had one from there too. Not much for a sport dog, but he was very nice. A little too quick to go to aggression for me, but not anything that made him "unsound" just not what I look for. My dogs need to be a little more social, at least I prefer they be. He was big too, and powerful.
     
  20. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Btw, I have said this before but start now. Meet a club, be an extra body, pose as a mock judge, a track layer, a group member, help with set up and clean up, anything. Start tracking with your current dogs, practice IPO style obed with your dogs, and learn about puppy foundations by hands on helping other members. Our club could always use an extra body.

    I would also bet you can't really judge your dogs opinion of Bitework without a proper introduction. You may never have a regional dog or even a club trial dog but you can learn a lot by just being around and training. It will totally make your choice, of get a shepherd breed or not, easier and I think you should know approximately your interest before getting a dog for the sport because most dogs bred with the sport in mind are happiest there and thus asking them to mold into another lifestyle can be challenging for most handlers.

    Hope that helps, there is so much more to IPO than buying a dog with all the potential.
     

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