Doodles (and how Labradoodles are different)
- Thread starter Doodley
- Start date
If people want a lab / poodle mix, that's fine. They should go RESCUE one. There are specific "labradoodle" rescues now because so many people buy them because they supposedly don't shed or are hypoallergenic, and then it turns out their dog DOES shed or make them sneeze.
But getting one from a backyard breeder is completely irresponsible.
But getting one from a backyard breeder is completely irresponsible.
Cute dogs available:
http://www.poomixrescue.com/
http://www.poomixrescue.com/
L
I just read the OP's original post, so if I'm repeating a question just let me know. 
Why did you get your Labradoodle? Did he/she come directly from an Australian line that has been tested and proven to be hypoallergenic/low-no shed? I don't think any dog, regardless of how you breed it, can be totally hypoallergenic. People are allergic to different aspects of the dog (dander, hair, saliva).
Were the parents (of your pup) tested (hips and eyes)? Were the parents titled, so you get the best (hopefully) of both breeds in your pup? Were they F1 or something different? What kind of guarantee did you get? Did your "breeder" try to tell you that your dog would have a specific coat length/type and what size and temperament it would be full grown? I sure hope not...seeing as how labradoodles don't have a set standard (working on it, yes) and aren't breeding "true" all the time.
These are not breeds, they are mixes. If they are ever proven to be hypoallergenic then by all means, have a standard and get accepted by a reputable kennel club. Until then, it's just another mixed breed designer dog without a real 'purpose'. jmo
Why did you get your Labradoodle? Did he/she come directly from an Australian line that has been tested and proven to be hypoallergenic/low-no shed? I don't think any dog, regardless of how you breed it, can be totally hypoallergenic. People are allergic to different aspects of the dog (dander, hair, saliva).
Were the parents (of your pup) tested (hips and eyes)? Were the parents titled, so you get the best (hopefully) of both breeds in your pup? Were they F1 or something different? What kind of guarantee did you get? Did your "breeder" try to tell you that your dog would have a specific coat length/type and what size and temperament it would be full grown? I sure hope not...seeing as how labradoodles don't have a set standard (working on it, yes) and aren't breeding "true" all the time.
These are not breeds, they are mixes. If they are ever proven to be hypoallergenic then by all means, have a standard and get accepted by a reputable kennel club. Until then, it's just another mixed breed designer dog without a real 'purpose'. jmo
i completely understand the arguments regarding lack of proper health testing and the greed factor.
however, what exactly is so different from breeding for pets versus breeding for a breed standard with the likelyhood that most if not all of the litter are going to end up as pets anyways with maybe one show dog? I would guess in the United States the overwhelmingly majority (i.e. high 90 percentile) of dogs are companions and nothing more. if the chances are that most of them are not going to be working dogs or sire working dogs, is there really a difference? both are adding to overpopulation.
i'm not trying to be argumentative, i just plain don't know.
however, what exactly is so different from breeding for pets versus breeding for a breed standard with the likelyhood that most if not all of the litter are going to end up as pets anyways with maybe one show dog? I would guess in the United States the overwhelmingly majority (i.e. high 90 percentile) of dogs are companions and nothing more. if the chances are that most of them are not going to be working dogs or sire working dogs, is there really a difference? both are adding to overpopulation.
i'm not trying to be argumentative, i just plain don't know.
honestly i leave you guys for 3 days and look what happens
This is why i hate Designer breeders http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32871
along with
http://www.geocities.com/stevenlecornu/Designer_dogs.html
This is why i hate Designer breeders http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32871
along with
http://www.geocities.com/stevenlecornu/Designer_dogs.html
if you aim for the best and only end up with a couple of show quality dogs and a bunch of pet quality dogs, what happens when you only aim for mediocrity? responsible breeders are trying to produce the best dogs both physically (health and conformation) and temperamentally. whether these dogs are used for show or for companionship shouldn't matter. don't pet owners deserve physically sound and healthy, temperamentally solid dogs, too? doesn't it matter just as much to a pet owner that their dog doesn't go blind at the age of 4 or isn't crippled by hip dysplasia or isn't so temperamentally unsound that it requires a huge amount of work just to make the dog into a reasonable pet?
Not really an arguement for either side, although I do have a Labradoodle (from Australia) and believe me they are unique. The point that I really wanted to make is this. Out of every litter of purebred dogs, how many do you (everyone) think go onto show or actually do what they were bred to do. Even the best breeders produce mostly pet quality dog in the majority of breeds..including all groups. For the record, I am 100% for complete health testing as much as I'm against BYB, that's one reason that I got Sophie from where I did. Like I've said before, I'd love to see a world where breeding was left to a select few with strick licensing and regulations. I have 3 resuces from "breeders" of pure bred dogs who were/are very involved in the show world. The neglect suffered at the hands of these "breeders" was disgusting.
(this post is not aimed at you elegy, just elaborating on some of your points)
(this post is not aimed at you elegy, just elaborating on some of your points)
Of course your Australian Labrapoo is unique! They are all unique because they haven't been bred to the point where there is a definable breed standard. If you don't believe me, look at the Australian Labrapoo's website & read their "standard"! Even THEY can't define their own supposed-breed!
On that topic, it takes many, many, many generations of careful breeding to replicate genetic traits to any reliable degree. Some very established breeds have problems with undesireable traits popping out in new generations, even after more than 100 years of breeding. IF the Australian Labrapoo is ever a real breed, it won't be in our lifetime. (Well, unless you are one of the folks on here who is 14! )
As for the number of show quality pups out of each litter, that is impossible to say, because it depends on the genetic quality of the sire & dam and their succeeding generations. The breeder I got my Standard Poodle from is VERY well-known in the breed community, has had her dogs placed in TV programs, commercials, & movies, and admitted to me that out of eight litters a year (with 6-8 pups per litter), she sees an AVERAGE of 1-3 dogs which she considers "show quality". (BTW, there is more to "show quality" than a dog that closely fits the breed's physical standards)
I did a little experiment and called about 30 Standard Poodle breeders that I found on the internet (yes, I have free long distance) and... wonder of wonders!... each one who had a current litter had a show quality pup available (at a slightly higher price, of course). The simple fact is that "show quality" = "pick of the litter" to most breeders. And not to divert this thread again, that is most often the case with BYBs!
And on another topic, I think alot of owners/breeders don't realize HOW MUCH work and $$ it takes to finish a dog. It would not be unusual to spend $8-10,000 before earning a CH title in many breeds (especially in the AKC circuit!)
On that topic, it takes many, many, many generations of careful breeding to replicate genetic traits to any reliable degree. Some very established breeds have problems with undesireable traits popping out in new generations, even after more than 100 years of breeding. IF the Australian Labrapoo is ever a real breed, it won't be in our lifetime. (Well, unless you are one of the folks on here who is 14!
)As for the number of show quality pups out of each litter, that is impossible to say, because it depends on the genetic quality of the sire & dam and their succeeding generations. The breeder I got my Standard Poodle from is VERY well-known in the breed community, has had her dogs placed in TV programs, commercials, & movies, and admitted to me that out of eight litters a year (with 6-8 pups per litter), she sees an AVERAGE of 1-3 dogs which she considers "show quality". (BTW, there is more to "show quality" than a dog that closely fits the breed's physical standards)
I did a little experiment and called about 30 Standard Poodle breeders that I found on the internet (yes, I have free long distance) and... wonder of wonders!... each one who had a current litter had a show quality pup available (at a slightly higher price, of course). The simple fact is that "show quality" = "pick of the litter" to most breeders. And not to divert this thread again, that is most often the case with BYBs!
And on another topic, I think alot of owners/breeders don't realize HOW MUCH work and $$ it takes to finish a dog. It would not be unusual to spend $8-10,000 before earning a CH title in many breeds (especially in the AKC circuit!)
Of course your Australian Labrapoo is unique! They are all unique because they haven't been bred to the point where there is a definable breed standard. If you don't believe me, look at the Australian Labrapoo's website & read their "standard"! Even THEY can't define their own supposed-breed!
As far as my saying that my dog was unique, it was to adress a post suggesting that there is nothing unique about this mixed retriever as opposed to either the Poodle or the Lab - Please read context before quoting... Their beginings (Rutland Manor and Tegan Park) are the places to look if you really want to post facts. By the way, the line that Soph came from is extremely predictable so I'm not sure if you're comparing what I posted to BYB's
On that topic, it takes many, many, many generations of careful breeding to replicate genetic traits to any reliable degree. Some very established breeds have problems with undesireable traits popping out in new generations, even after more than 100 years of breeding. IF the Australian Labrapoo is ever a real breed, it won't be in our lifetime. (Well, unless you are one of the folks on here who is 14! )
Thanks for your insight, I've been in the dog world in a professional capacity for many years and am well aware of what it takes to breed true.
As for the number of show quality pups out of each litter, that is impossible to say, because it depends on the genetic quality of the sire & dam and their succeeding generations. The breeder I got my Standard Poodle from is VERY well-known in the breed community, has had her dogs placed in TV programs, commercials, & movies, and admitted to me that out of eight litters a year (with 6-8 pups per litter), she sees an AVERAGE of 1-3 dogs which she considers "show quality". (BTW, there is more to "show quality" than a dog that closely fits the breed's physical standards)
Not sure if you point is pro/con/undecided but what I was was trying to get accross was that breeding a litter of 10+ puppies, often the case with a Standard Poodle, 1 "show" quality puppy is 10% to improve the line and 90% pet or other purpose???
I did a little experiment and called about 30 Standard Poodle breeders that I found on the internet (yes, I have free long distance) and... wonder of wonders!... each one who had a current litter had a show quality pup available (at a slightly higher price, of course). The simple fact is that "show quality" = "pick of the litter" to most breeders. And not to divert this thread again, that is most often the case with BYBs!
And on another topic, I think alot of owners/breeders don't realize HOW MUCH work and $$ it takes to finish a dog. It would not be unusual to spend $8-10,000 before earning a CH title in many breeds (especially in the AKC circuit!)
As far as my saying that my dog was unique, it was to adress a post suggesting that there is nothing unique about this mixed retriever as opposed to either the Poodle or the Lab - Please read context before quoting... Their beginings (Rutland Manor and Tegan Park) are the places to look if you really want to post facts. By the way, the line that Soph came from is extremely predictable so I'm not sure if you're comparing what I posted to BYB's
On that topic, it takes many, many, many generations of careful breeding to replicate genetic traits to any reliable degree. Some very established breeds have problems with undesireable traits popping out in new generations, even after more than 100 years of breeding. IF the Australian Labrapoo is ever a real breed, it won't be in our lifetime. (Well, unless you are one of the folks on here who is 14!
)Thanks for your insight, I've been in the dog world in a professional capacity for many years and am well aware of what it takes to breed true.
As for the number of show quality pups out of each litter, that is impossible to say, because it depends on the genetic quality of the sire & dam and their succeeding generations. The breeder I got my Standard Poodle from is VERY well-known in the breed community, has had her dogs placed in TV programs, commercials, & movies, and admitted to me that out of eight litters a year (with 6-8 pups per litter), she sees an AVERAGE of 1-3 dogs which she considers "show quality". (BTW, there is more to "show quality" than a dog that closely fits the breed's physical standards)
Not sure if you point is pro/con/undecided
but what I was was trying to get accross was that breeding a litter of 10+ puppies, often the case with a Standard Poodle, 1 "show" quality puppy is 10% to improve the line and 90% pet or other purpose??? I did a little experiment and called about 30 Standard Poodle breeders that I found on the internet (yes, I have free long distance) and... wonder of wonders!... each one who had a current litter had a show quality pup available (at a slightly higher price, of course). The simple fact is that "show quality" = "pick of the litter" to most breeders. And not to divert this thread again, that is most often the case with BYBs!
And on another topic, I think alot of owners/breeders don't realize HOW MUCH work and $$ it takes to finish a dog. It would not be unusual to spend $8-10,000 before earning a CH title in many breeds (especially in the AKC circuit!)
These tests set the destiny of a puppy and are done at 3 days on either side of 8 weeks (structure), temperment if done correctly - many times between 5 and 9 weeks. Again, not sure about the point of your post or why you even quoted me when choosing to respond.
As far as the Labradoodle arguement, no one is more appauled by the "breeders" cropping up trying to make a fast buck. I suggest that you go to the source/beginning to see that progress is continuing to be made and that this useful creature is much more predictable and closer than you think.
I was a tad sarcastic when I said that the Australian Labrapoo was totally unique. I am well aware that it isn't a simple mix of lab & poodle, but has an added injection of several other breeds.
The cross may be well on its way towards becoming a breed, but you CANNOT deny that it has a long way to go! Here's a quote from the "breed standard" of the "Australian Labradoodle Club of America".
"Size: Sizes are still "somewhat inconsistent" with no definition between male and female at this time. Accurate prediction of size, even by an experienced breeder, is not expected at this time." :yikes:
As for consistency, I guess there is even controversy by the "respected" breeders as to the name the breed should have!! (Actually, I think that would be the BEST thing they could do, as "labradoodle" has some serious negative conotations, and serious breeders would do well to avoid that label.)
Now, I never said that you breeder was a BYB... never even implied it! I understand what is happening with a few dedicated breeders creating a new breed from a cross. It is a fascinating process to watch, but you have to admit that 99% of the labrapoo owners out there have no idea what is going on... they just want one of those fancy "hypo-allergenic" dogs they've been hearing about. And I think we both agree that BYBs have been breeding like crazy to satisfy the crazy demand for these "designer dogs".
As for my statement about the number of show quality per litter, it was neither pro or con... just a fact. If everyone who thought they had a show quality dog actually DID, you'd see them on every streetcorner! Most people who spend $1000 on a dog seem to think it is Westminster quality.
Oh, and the 14-yr-old part wasn't a reference to you but to a few other folks who have posted with big plans to breed designer dogs, even though they have no experience in showing or breeding.
Ever meet a 14-yr-old who DIDN'T know more than someone twice (or three times) their age? :lol-sign:
The cross may be well on its way towards becoming a breed, but you CANNOT deny that it has a long way to go! Here's a quote from the "breed standard" of the "Australian Labradoodle Club of America".
"Size: Sizes are still "somewhat inconsistent" with no definition between male and female at this time. Accurate prediction of size, even by an experienced breeder, is not expected at this time." :yikes:
As for consistency, I guess there is even controversy by the "respected" breeders as to the name the breed should have!! (Actually, I think that would be the BEST thing they could do, as "labradoodle" has some serious negative conotations, and serious breeders would do well to avoid that label.)
Now, I never said that you breeder was a BYB... never even implied it! I understand what is happening with a few dedicated breeders creating a new breed from a cross. It is a fascinating process to watch, but you have to admit that 99% of the labrapoo owners out there have no idea what is going on... they just want one of those fancy "hypo-allergenic" dogs they've been hearing about. And I think we both agree that BYBs have been breeding like crazy to satisfy the crazy demand for these "designer dogs".
As for my statement about the number of show quality per litter, it was neither pro or con... just a fact. If everyone who thought they had a show quality dog actually DID, you'd see them on every streetcorner! Most people who spend $1000 on a dog seem to think it is Westminster quality.
Oh, and the 14-yr-old part wasn't a reference to you but to a few other folks who have posted with big plans to breed designer dogs, even though they have no experience in showing or breeding.
Ever meet a 14-yr-old who DIDN'T know more than someone twice (or three times) their age? :lol-sign:
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