Don't you think there are enough...
- Thread starter amymarley
- Start date
it's not that there aren't "enough", but all the breeders i know personally mainly breed to preserve their bloodline and improve the breed. they do not mass produce litter after litter after litter indiscriminately, they breed once a year, or maybe even just once every other year and carefully plan which dog they want to breed to which. often they keep at least one of the puppies for their own breeding program.
you can't lump these people into the same category as large scale commercial kennels like for example the idiots at kimbertal
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as long as people want dogs and want convenience, the puppy mills/commercial kennels are going to thrive and contribute to the overpopulation problem, that issue is not on the shoulders of the responsible, reputable breeders.
you can't lump these people into the same category as large scale commercial kennels like for example the idiots at kimbertal
as long as people want dogs and want convenience, the puppy mills/commercial kennels are going to thrive and contribute to the overpopulation problem, that issue is not on the shoulders of the responsible, reputable breeders.
I guess I have to say that I have been standing on one side of the fence. Again, I, along with others have been saving mutts and purebreeds for years. I can't speak and won't about breeds on a whole....example...I am not in the breeding community, and say if I was, I would prob. know the good and bad breeders of say, German Shepards. Since, I don't I can't pin point a certain breeder. I was/am just VERY passionate about what I have had to do in the past. I wrote a while back about some customs dogs, these 3 dogs came from 3 different breeders, the breeders then "sold" them or whatever to U.S. Customs, or whoever Customs has on contract at that time. The trainer then saw they were not "fit" and left them for the Humane SOciety to find homes for. As far as I am concerned, shame on customs too. All 3 dogs were sooooo trainable. I can agree that they were maybe not "top notch" for them, but would have been great sniffers. I was lucky enough to work with the Atlanta Police K-9 unit for a bit to learn how to train bomb/drug sniffers and incorporate that into my shows. These dogs did great, but again, I am getting off the subject.
I would hate to any breed extinct... Like I said, I just get passionate... Show horses can be worth hundreds, thousands and even millions, and I am sure you have heard about so much abuse and neglect with them. It's not always the breeders, of course, it's the people. Then again, look around us and see some of the people breeding children that don't need to be. That's another story...
Basically, I don't know the whole community of breeders, I have just seen the outcome on my side. I hope I came across a bit better and some of you may at least have a small or better understanding of my fustration.
Amy
I would hate to any breed extinct... Like I said, I just get passionate... Show horses can be worth hundreds, thousands and even millions, and I am sure you have heard about so much abuse and neglect with them. It's not always the breeders, of course, it's the people. Then again, look around us and see some of the people breeding children that don't need to be. That's another story...
Basically, I don't know the whole community of breeders, I have just seen the outcome on my side. I hope I came across a bit better and some of you may at least have a small or better understanding of my fustration.
Amy
amy, i definitely understand your point of view.
i'm originally from germany, where the control parent breed clubs exert over breeders is much stricter and there is much less indiscriminate breeding. i was totally shocked and horrified when i moved to the US and found out that (a) dogs in american shelters (animal control, not rescues etc.) are routinely killed off to make room for more and (b) the numbers of animals killed for that eason every year are in the millions.
there are puppy mill style operations in germany (and other european countries) as well, but not on the same scale as in the US.
i'm originally from germany, where the control parent breed clubs exert over breeders is much stricter and there is much less indiscriminate breeding. i was totally shocked and horrified when i moved to the US and found out that (a) dogs in american shelters (animal control, not rescues etc.) are routinely killed off to make room for more and (b) the numbers of animals killed for that eason every year are in the millions.
there are puppy mill style operations in germany (and other european countries) as well, but not on the same scale as in the US.
Hey Mordy, I lived in Germany for 3 years, went to school in Munich and lived in Bad Tolz... I love Germany. My fathers wife of 2 years and her 2 kids (love them) are from Germany too. I know how the German treat their dogs, shoot, our dogs were servered water bowls before they even took our drink order. haha
amy
amy
Have to repeat... in the thread above/or below.... ? for Granny or Manchester.... they stopped breeding because they felt no more need. There were too many pups in shelters at the moment and stopped the line. I so feel for them, and have so much respect for them. Even though I am "cool" now, I would love to know why I was bashed about breeding when I first came on. These are seasoned breeders knowing when to stop, and make a better world for animals... still don't get it. But at least I now know where it was coming from. ....Just more of my passion...Just never saw this post, I mean the question to Granny and Manchester. Gotta luv them.
Its not righ of you to assume we are all out to make a buck. Breeding dogs the right way is extremly expensive you you do it the correct way. In the end i have never made back from a litter of puppies what i spent preparing for the puppies all the health tests and vet visits an supplies. I breed for better and healthier working dogs I breed to help the breeds. I rescue as well infact 9 of my dogs ARE rescues. So don't go about assuming things about people it is wrong.
breeding for money
you are right! i do breed for 35 years! we have strict rules regarding health, age for breeding, how many litters etc. they are checked in every way before" licensed to breed from! at least we do have that in France, in holland, germany: most of european countries anyway: very strict breedingrules! more then 20 pups a year ( i never get to that having one litter a year or even not one at all!) you have to pay tax! as breeding is checked and registered!
and i do have a rescue as well for all retrievers! strange(?) most of them are the mixed ones! we are so afraid what comes after the hype of the lab, golden etc doodles! they will end in the rescues as well..... think twice ... better go to good breeders, if any problems, they do! take their dogs back ... help finding a solution for any problem ... as they DO feel responsable for their breed! if one has gone to all test, all healthchecks, all shows to get the "qualifications" for breeding ... do you reallu think they make lots of money?
maybe the puppyfarmers who have many dogs ... check if the breeder has her old girls around ? are the dogs in the house ... or all day in crates, kennels etc ... puppies born in the house ...
believe me a good breeder like to see the pups grow ... spends all his time with them ... wants them to grow up as a social, happy dog ...; as mostly he/she is the one who decide what pup is going where ... so she needs to know about his behaviour : only known when spending lots of time with the pups .... that is what good breeders do!
so dont mix up puppyfarms with breeders with good intentions ...
strange(?) that most rescue volunteers are BREEDERS !? NO , they have taken rresponsability going further then the front door ! Just go and look around... better spending bit more time with visiting breeders to find the good one ...
you are right! i do breed for 35 years! we have strict rules regarding health, age for breeding, how many litters etc. they are checked in every way before" licensed to breed from! at least we do have that in France, in holland, germany: most of european countries anyway: very strict breedingrules! more then 20 pups a year ( i never get to that having one litter a year or even not one at all!) you have to pay tax! as breeding is checked and registered!
and i do have a rescue as well for all retrievers! strange(?) most of them are the mixed ones! we are so afraid what comes after the hype of the lab, golden etc doodles! they will end in the rescues as well..... think twice ... better go to good breeders, if any problems, they do! take their dogs back ... help finding a solution for any problem ... as they DO feel responsable for their breed! if one has gone to all test, all healthchecks, all shows to get the "qualifications" for breeding ... do you reallu think they make lots of money?
maybe the puppyfarmers who have many dogs ... check if the breeder has her old girls around ? are the dogs in the house ... or all day in crates, kennels etc ... puppies born in the house ...
believe me a good breeder like to see the pups grow ... spends all his time with them ... wants them to grow up as a social, happy dog ...; as mostly he/she is the one who decide what pup is going where ... so she needs to know about his behaviour : only known when spending lots of time with the pups .... that is what good breeders do!
so dont mix up puppyfarms with breeders with good intentions ...
strange(?) that most rescue volunteers are BREEDERS !? NO , they have taken rresponsability going further then the front door ! Just go and look around... better spending bit more time with visiting breeders to find the good one ...
W
Amy I see your point however... there is a need for purebred pups that can be shown... You cant show a purebreed from a shelter now can you.. It isnt always for income. And you should realize that. I mean I think you are correct in many of your statements but you have to look from another point of view
Where did you get your dog from? a breeder or shelter?
Where did you get your dog from? a breeder or shelter?
I got my boxer from a shelter.... As for showing dogs, A LOT OF YOU WILL HATE ME... I don't see the point. Sorry, I have taken in over 300 animals that were not "above par" that would still kick the butt in training and a pet/best friend over all. That's just my 2 cents... you don't have to agree. I would never "alter" my best friend that is supposed to be like my family to make "ME" happy. I love'm the way they come. I hope I answered your question...
Again,, WHite dove... I rescused over 300 animals from shelters, never got ONE from a breeder.....
Again,, WHite dove... I rescused over 300 animals from shelters, never got ONE from a breeder.....
you may not see the point, but it doesn't change the fac that we do need responsible, conscientious breeders who will continue preserving the breed. otherwise it won't be all that long until breeds that have been around for hundreds of years will simply vanish.
yeah, as a pet pretty much any dog will be fine, but if you are interested in more than "just" a pet dog, a mixed breed or rescue simply won't do, as many dog sport activities are cenered around the tasks that certain dog breeds were historically bred to perform.
to perform well, these purebred dogs must conform to a specific standard that ensures they have the proper shape for their job, and the best breeding stock is determined by correct conformation and working ability/temperament. don't you agree that it is better to narrow down thebreeding stock to the best examples of the breed rather than just breed indiscriminately?
it isn't all black and white. you can't throw all breeders in the same pot, maybe you should direct your anger more specifically against those breeders who produce the dogs that end up in pet stores, shelters and rescues - because a good breeder will take back any dog from their breeding program no questions asked when the new owner can't keep it anymore for whatever reasons. those dogs don't end up in shelters.
yeah, as a pet pretty much any dog will be fine, but if you are interested in more than "just" a pet dog, a mixed breed or rescue simply won't do, as many dog sport activities are cenered around the tasks that certain dog breeds were historically bred to perform.
to perform well, these purebred dogs must conform to a specific standard that ensures they have the proper shape for their job, and the best breeding stock is determined by correct conformation and working ability/temperament. don't you agree that it is better to narrow down thebreeding stock to the best examples of the breed rather than just breed indiscriminately?
it isn't all black and white. you can't throw all breeders in the same pot, maybe you should direct your anger more specifically against those breeders who produce the dogs that end up in pet stores, shelters and rescues - because a good breeder will take back any dog from their breeding program no questions asked when the new owner can't keep it anymore for whatever reasons. those dogs don't end up in shelters.
Mordy put it perfectly.
Animalbiz, you're pretty much preaching to the choir when it comes to backyard breeders. We know they suck. Believe me, I've been involved with helping to place homeless dogs too. I know how big of a problem there is with overpopulation but I can guarantee you that the dogs from truly responsible breeders are not the ones that you're going to find wasting away in shelters - EVER.
Animalbiz, you're pretty much preaching to the choir when it comes to backyard breeders. We know they suck. Believe me, I've been involved with helping to place homeless dogs too. I know how big of a problem there is with overpopulation but I can guarantee you that the dogs from truly responsible breeders are not the ones that you're going to find wasting away in shelters - EVER.
B
Agreed. Where I live its 120 for a adult cat. More for kittens. Even more a adult dog and more than that for a puppy. But on the other hand the price of pet shop dogs mutts has increased to several hundred and not uncommonly over 2 thousand. So if nothing else no body is going to make the excuse of getting a pet store dog because its cheaper. But I agree it still should be lower to make the offer more enticing to potential dog owners rather than making the mistake of getting a pet store dog.
unfortunately that's not always possible. rescues are generally non-profit, but they do have costs to cover for food, supplies, vet care, spay/neuter, housing pets and so on. their only source of money for these things are adoption fees, donations and fundraising events.
in most cases what you pay for a rescue animal is still less than what you would have to pay if you got the animal for free but have to take care of all associated costs yourself. spay surgery for dogs and cats is often around or over $50 already, a lot more if you don't get any sort of discount. i paid $180 to have my oldest cat spayed, the 4 young ones went through a city-sponsored spay and neuter clinic that cost around $25 for the boys and $45 for the girls.
in most cases what you pay for a rescue animal is still less than what you would have to pay if you got the animal for free but have to take care of all associated costs yourself. spay surgery for dogs and cats is often around or over $50 already, a lot more if you don't get any sort of discount. i paid $180 to have my oldest cat spayed, the 4 young ones went through a city-sponsored spay and neuter clinic that cost around $25 for the boys and $45 for the girls.
Good Lord, this thread is long 
. Back to the "original" debate. The way I look at it? There does need to be responsible breeders that are furthering the breed, although I've had my doubts that that's what they've been doing (medium-sized, squat little blonde goldens come to mind). Then there's your BYBer's... who drop their puppies off at a shelter when they're not up to par. There is NO money-making in it unless you're a puppymill... which brings to mind, we must lobby to shut down pet stores!!!!! Why in God's name, if someone wants to get a purebred, would they not go through rescue? They're already in foster (or a shelter), getting evaluated, you know what you get (kind of... I realize... but there's no guarantee with puppies, either). If you feel like your shelter isn't taking care of the dog to evaluate it... take him/her out yourself and evaluate! Just know, you're not going to get the most perfect pet first off the bat in most cases. But if you want that, your expectations are a bit too high and I would suggest a goldfish...
. Back to the "original" debate. The way I look at it? There does need to be responsible breeders that are furthering the breed, although I've had my doubts that that's what they've been doing (medium-sized, squat little blonde goldens come to mind). Then there's your BYBer's... who drop their puppies off at a shelter when they're not up to par. There is NO money-making in it unless you're a puppymill... which brings to mind, we must lobby to shut down pet stores!!!!! Why in God's name, if someone wants to get a purebred, would they not go through rescue? They're already in foster (or a shelter), getting evaluated, you know what you get (kind of... I realize... but there's no guarantee with puppies, either). If you feel like your shelter isn't taking care of the dog to evaluate it... take him/her out yourself and evaluate! Just know, you're not going to get the most perfect pet first off the bat in most cases. But if you want that, your expectations are a bit too high and I would suggest a goldfish...