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corgipower

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#41
Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.
Do you do what your boss asks of you just because he says so? Or do you do it because at the end of the week you'll get a paycheck for doing it?

I wouldn't waste one minute on trying to convince someone that the earth is not flat either. This OP and all the aka's is a moron.
Oh, I don't at all believe I'll convince them, but it is fun to play with trolls.:D

http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t91790/
 

Beanie

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#42
Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?
This is the problem. I'm sorry that there's no nice way to say it, but the belief that dogs trained with food will only work with food present is wrong.
It is unfortunate that people who train primarily with punishment methods find the need to lie and attempt to completely invalidate the success of positive reinforcement methods, but I suppose if you told somebody "Sure, feeding with positive reinforcement can work, but wouldn't you rather train your dog by choking them with a prong and popping them with the leash?" the answer most people would give is "Um, no," and that wouldn't really lead to a successful business strategy.

Training with punishment methods can certainly work and I don't think most positive reinforcement trainers would claim they do not. However, the question is do you WANT to train your dog by popping the collar, choking it, hanging your dog, alpha rolling it, and causing it so much distress that it thrashes around and causing a dog's eyes to become bloodshot? I believe most people would rather not physically harm their dogs repeatedly in order to make them sit when we say "sit."


In conclusion, I agree with Doberluv, and am happy I never changed my custom title. Torturing my dog by training him with treats is an interesting accusation, but I still think being called part of the cookie-waving cult is still the best.
 

motherofmany

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#44
By all means, find a reputable trainer. One that doesn't follow outdated methods. One with certifications, not just an internet "shingle" filled with lies and distortions to make himself look good.

Here is a good place to start. Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources

The OP and supporter(s)/aka(s) may be morons, but I believe in combatting ignorance head on. Too many dogs have suffered due to these types of "trainers."

Even one observer convinced that positive methods are safer, saner, smarter and more efficacious is worth the discussion :)
 

Laurelin

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#45
Honestly watching the toy dogs in the 'toy and small dog' video on the trainer's page you just linked, I don't see obedience, I see a dog that is shut down. Look at when the man approaches the chihuahua and points at it to lie down... The dog cowers first. It's ears are pinned back the ENTIRE video and its tail is never up. It does NOT look happy or pleased at all. Why would I want that?

Also, kind of lame... most their videos of 'obedience' are of dogs just lying there in the house. My dogs do that naturally most the day. I don't need to pay someone to have a dog that will go lie down in bed lol.
 

Dekka

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#46
SACRAMENTO DOG TRAINING
(916) 927-7725 David Baron, Owner . .

Why Choose Us Over Food-Bribery Trainers

You want someone who can get your dog to obey your voice quickly without yelling, violence or bribing with food. Who wants a dog who doesn't listen unless you have treats?
Totally agree who wants a dog who only listens if you have treats.

Obedience is you asking your dog to do something and he does it because you say so, and not because the dog is going to get food or be punished.
Really so you can train a dog just by asking it do do things, no leash corrections, no praise, no yelling, that would be a first and make all the major scientific papers. This would make the person FAMOUS if it was possible.

Be forewarned, the words "Positive Reinforcement, Luring and Operant Conditioning." are code for bribing with food. Folks, don't waste your time and money on this nonsense and call us to learn how to train your dog fast without food or violent methods. The cruelest method is the one where the dog never gets trained and the dog no longer respects the owners and is biting people as a direct result of owners trying to train their dog with food. Then the dog has to be euthanized.
This shows the author of this has NO clue of what operant conditioning is. Operant conditioning is another word for training and has nothing to do with 'positive' trainers. Heck Kohler used operant conditioning...

Also this is very interesting as it goes against everything the American Society of animal behaviourists recommend. I myself has rehabbed dogs who were 'aggressive' due to bad handling. I can say you can earn a dogs respect and trust with rewards. In fact its the primary way reccomended by behaviourists. But hey there are those who still claim the earth is flat....

a real dog trainer, not some kid at the pet shop or side-liner holding classes in the park or at the SPCA. The pinch collar is a tool. Half of the homes we go to the client already has a pinch collar because they hear at work and from their friends that pinch collars often work good for getting hyper or very strong dogs under control. We recommend not using any collar, but you have to start somewhere. We don't tell people which collar to use, just the ones not to use.
Yep go for a real trainer. People with multiple world championships, or national championships. I have talked to such trainers. NONE would recommend an article like this. Go for trainers who can talk knowlegelby about all methods. Who don't dismiss a training style because they don't understand it.

always people who are against pinch collars have never used one. Usually these people are living in an imaginary dream world where they fantasize about getting their dog under control or off-leash obedient with lots of yummy treats from Mommy for their furry human baby.
Well I have used them, and shock collars. I stopped as I found my dogs learnt faster and were far more reliable in the competition ring when I ditched the punishments and upped the rewards.

is mean is a dog not getting trained and left out-of-control and having to be euthanized. Usually Food-Bribery dog trainers are the first ones to tell you to destroy your dog when the treat training does not work or later on when your dog turns aggressive.
Well once again. NO good positive trainer recommends bribery. The do recommend rewards. NILIF is the best way to take control of an out of control dog. And yes it does get a dog to greatly respect you. It gets the dog to realize all good things come from humans, and that they need to be well mannered in order to earn them.

could anyone be against something that saves many dogs lives?
Because it kills as many dogs as it saves. Teaching a dog to obey out of fear (of pain from a collar etc) does nothing to get them to respect those they know they are 'more powerful than' If its obey the mightiest mentality where does that leave children?

pinch collar was developed by a veterinarian as a safe and humane alternative to choke chains. Pinch collars are what you use on small dogs with easily damagable half-round tracheas like Jack Russel Terriers and Dachshunds with really delicate necks. People who say pinch collars are dangerous are wrong--pinch collars are the safest collar. Again, we say it is mean to not train your dog and have to use collars and leashes.
Sure not training your dog is mean. There are people who use staves to train their dogs. But that isn't necessary. If you need to result to corporal punishment to teach things as easy as heeling, or sit then I think your training techniques suck. Why would you WANT to use force to train when you dont' have to?

collars have saved many dogs lives and only should be used, if at all, for a short time just while training. They are now very popular with women, kids, seniors and people with injuries or disabilities. It only takes about 20%, or less, energy to get the same or more response from a dog wearing one versus a flat buckle collar.
Sure thats true. BUT more people slap them (and halties) on their dogs INSTEAD of training them. Most people use them as a crutch vs training their dogs to want to walk with them.
 

Sit Stay

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#47
This just makes me appreciate the trainer we've been going to for 15 years SO MUCH MORE. We took my childhood dog Jasmine, who we got when I was 3, to her puppy classes, and now I'm volunteering for her to pay off Quinn's puppy classes.

The 'silver lining' here is that she's having to spam a message board to get clients, so hopefully people aren't lured in by all her BS and instead going to better and more reputable trainers. At least that's what I hope, LOL.
 
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Saeleofu

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#48
I use treats and clicker training. I also use collar pops when needed. I have used prongs in the past, and will use them in the future IF the need arises. But by far the vast majority of my training is positive reinforcement. I generally work and train my dogs in martingales. Even with using food primarily to train, both my dogs will do as I ask WITHOUT food present.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with a prong on a small dog. I can't foresee a reason to NEED a prong on a small dog. It just doesn't make sense.

This person says she trains SDs. I wouldn't touch one of those SDs with a 10 foot pole. I'll remember to tell anyone looking for an SD to stay FAR, FAR AWAY from this woman. So than you for advertising that you're terrible, and giving us a head up :)
 

motherofmany

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#50
I feel like Columbo (does that date me?)

But just one more thing....

It is a heck of a lot easier to phase out the clicker and the food than a choke or a pinch collar ;)
 

Laurelin

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#51
Wait am I reading this right....

Again, we say it is mean to not train your dog and have to use collars and leashes.
Are they saying using collars and leashes long term is a BAD thing?
 

Doberluv

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#53
By all means, find a reputable trainer. One that doesn't follow outdated methods. One with certifications, not just an internet "shingle" filled with lies and distortions to make himself look good.

Here is a good place to start. Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources

The OP and supporter(s)/aka(s) may be morons, but I believe in combatting ignorance head on. Too many dogs have suffered due to these types of "trainers."

Even one observer convinced that positive methods are safer, saner, smarter and more efficacious is worth the discussion :)
There's a reason that these types of people are still back in the dark ages of dog behavior. They won't read anything. They want to wear blinders so they can't see what science shows, what real behaviorists and trainers accomplish, how they accomplish it. They have their thumbs in their ears so they can't hear the evidence. In other words, their heads are so far up their arses, they don't know what they're seeing.

Force and phyiscal punishment, if it is harsh does not work....unless one considers the definition of work to mean simply being obedient. There's a whole lot more to a method "working" for me. Supression doesn't cut it...my dog doing what I ask "or else." And no....fyi Miss Troll...dogs trained correctly with treats do not work "only" for treats. That's just absurd. Have you ever heard of reinforcement schedules?

Anyhow, it's absurd to argue about matters of fact. Opinion, yes. Facts, no. Ridiculous.:rolleyes:

If the Op were not a troll and were genuinely interested in learning, she would have asked some questions rather than replied the way she did. So, the theory that trying to combat ignorance by discussion is probably not applicable in this case....that is, unless someone else is reading who may be more receptive.
 

stardogs

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#54
Anyone else notice that the dogs were magically in different places halfway thru the vid that Laur posted?!
 

motherofmany

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#55
There's a reason that these types of people are still back in the dark ages of dog behavior. They won't read anything. They want to wear blinders so they can't see what science shows, what real behaviorists and trainers accomplish, how they accomplish it.
Amen to that.

I'd add one more thing. It takes more honesty and more honest work to train correctly. Smashing a dogs spirit until it complies is lazy and easy and fullfills their 2 bit "guarantee" they give to unsuspecting and ignorant clients.

So, the theory that trying to combat ignorance by discussion is probably not applicable in this case....that is, unless someone else is reading who may be more receptive.
That's my hope. Even one bystander convinced is a victory, imo :)
 

Zoom

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#57
Hmm. I can't remember the last time I've had a collar of any sort on my dog and the slip lead we use for walks is on him solely to appease the leash laws. 99% of the time during our walks, the leash is so loose that I have to watch to make sure it hasn't fallen off. :p

I haven't used food in...I can't remember how long. Once the behaviors were trained and proofed with clicker and rewards, then those were phased out so Sawyer works on cues and praise mostly. I'll toss food in every once in a while to keep things fun and because I know he enjoys his treats. We work as a team, anyone watching us could see that. I really wish I had a video camera...

If you have a dog that refuses to work without a "bribe" being present, it means that you have failed at your training attempts, not that the method is inherently flawed. Become a better trainer instead of resorting to physically forcing your dog into submission.
 

Laurelin

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#58
Yep, I noticed. Magic teleporting dogs, I suppose. I will admit, I can't train that lol.

The thing I noticed most is that none were happy workers. :(That really bothered me.
Me too, especially the poor chihuahua. NOT a happy dog.

I don't think I'd be comfortable with a prong on a small dog. I can't foresee a reason to NEED a prong on a small dog. It just doesn't make sense.
I would go so far to say it's negligent bordering on abuse to use collar corrections on toy dogs. There is NO reason to increase that risk of collapsing trachea. You could severely injure a toy breed's neck that way.

Little anecdote, the first trainer I went to was a rally class with Beau. It was recommended by some people we knew from conformation showing. I should have been tipped off when the required equipment was a choke chain and leather leash. But I didn't know any better so I took Beau to the trainer. The trainer had rottweilers and he basically manhandled them into doing what he wanted. He tried the same with Beau when Beau wouldn't lie down. If I didn't know what I do now about chokes and toy dogs, it would have been funny watching that big burly man try to wrestle a 7 lb dog into a down. It didn't work at all. He never even got close to getting him to down and you know what? He could have severely injured my dog by putting that kind of pressure on his neck. I got curious and brought Beau home, pulled out some treats and had Beau reliably downing in just a few minutes through luring. Without ever hearing a thing of positive training/corrections/ANY of that debate. I had no idea what I was doing was even luring but it was what made sense to me to train him. And it worked! Now I recognize it for what it was, positive, reward based training. I never went back...

I thought I'd add this for the lurkers out there that might read the thread. If someone tells you to leash correct your toy breed- RUN! There is no need, and their tracheas are prone to collapsing. There is absolutely no reason to use collars that tighten around your toy dog's neck. Toys should be trained on a harness or off leash in a secured area. IF your dog does not pull at all (mine don't) then I think training with a flat collar is fine but you should never never never try a collar correction on a toy with any kind of collar.

And really... someone that needs to jerk around a 10 lb dog to get it to do what they want? Yeah not impressive.

while I'm at it....

All that's on that page is very very basic at best, and much of it is nothing. I mean really... I could post a video or two of a half a dozen dogs lying around on beds, a few pics of dogs swimming, a lab retrieving (omg the shock!), and a few recalls and I can be a magic trainer too?
 

motherofmany

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#59
a lab retrieving (omg the shock!)
I know! Right?! Imagine a Labrador Retriever retrieving! What a frickin miracle!

The miracle for us is when Abby stops dropping the ball at our feet when we say "enough" :)
 

-bogart-

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#60
this person is in my town. every day there are post opn craigslist for people to come get there dogs trained.

the lot that is used for the training in metairie is so unsafe , everytime i ride by there when they are training , i just know some dog is going to freak out and dart into traffic.
the lot is not enclosed at all.


check out the cop car , it has to be from the 70's also , JPSO has new crown victorias or mercury grand marquies.

she must know someone who owns the propety that grocery store is on , because way back when that photo was taken it was a schwegmenns supermarket and not a rouses.
 

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