Docket's problem

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Lilavati, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    I've not posted on this because well, its sort of embarassing, and because we felt it was under control, but I am beginning to feel at a loss.

    First, Docket's birthday was Friday. He's two. Happy birthday, Corgi-boy.

    On a less cheerful note, Docket has developed some serious DA problems. I'm going to describe the sequence of events and what we have done/been told.

    When we got him, he had never seen a dog that wasn't a corgi, and at first reacted fearfully to Sarama. BUt within a day, he was playing with dogs of all descriptions. He didn't have the world's best social skills, but he clearly wanted to play and had no trouble finding playmates at the dog park. He was like that until early last summer.

    He had begun to develop at taht point, a habit of lunging for other dog's ears. It appeared to be play, but the other dogs, understandably, did not appreciate it. Then, some time in June, he went nuts at a black goldendoodle who had in no way threatened him, barking and snarling.

    The next week, at agility, he did the same with another large black dog. From then one, dogs that were larger than he received barks, snarls, yanking at the leash, growls and air snaps. After a particulary unpleasant encounter with a few standard poodles, I took him to a trainer I knew who specialized in agressive dogs. She said that we had spoiled him, and that he was resource guarding me. THat seemed plausible. Sarama used to pick on him, and we would let him hide behind us, even climb up next to us to get away from her. He was permitted (as was she) to curl up on the bed. So we went through the program the trainer recommended. His behavior at home (which was being bratty, mostly to Sarama, who when then clobber him) improved. His behavior in public also improved as I made a real effort to be the leader and convince him that I didn't need protecting . . . but it only improved so much. I moments inattention from him and I had a vicious landshark at the end of the leash. But by and large the problem seemed under control. He was even politely saying hi to other dogs that were not huge and black.

    In the winter, both Sarama and Docket were enrolled in agility. I was handling Sarama in agility II (which we take over and over because III is at a time I can't make) and Mike had Docket in Agility I. After about three weeks, I took over Docket in I. He was throwing terrible scenes, and seemed to have decided that two big white curly dogs (a poodle and a labradoodle) where unholy, and would actually try to get loose and attack them. The agilty traininer, when asked, told me to take over Docket's class because Mike was getting very upset, embarassed, and angry.
    Once I took over, Docket's behavior improved, but only in the sense that I could handle him when he acted like that and see it coming, which Mike could not. Notably, Docket has no good reason to resource guard Mike . . I was the one who spoiled him, Mike actually didn't like him that much and paid attantion to Sarama.

    Docket has made progress with me handling him at agiliy. THe agility trainer has had a dog that has similiar problems and is wiling to work with us (she also teachs obediance and rally). She thinks that Docket, for whatever reason, has developed a fear of larger dogs, and that it has spread to most dogs he doesn't know. With strong leadership, I can convince him that there is nothing to worry about, and he will eventually get to the point that he, if not friendly, will not be a menace. However, Docket has bitten me (not drawing blood) during several of his psycho barking and snapping episodes, and although I don't intend to get rid of him, it is getting old. He has also snapped at Mike. But outside of these fits, he has never shown aggression to a person. He is also very submissive when he is not going after another dog.

    There is another twist. I took him down to the farm over Christmas. I warned my family that he was not good with other dogs, but my aunt (who is a dog trainer) suggested we put him out in the yard with Ticker, a border collie about Docket's age. Docket had reacted badly to BCs before, but we gave it a try. Not only was there no violence, Docket was delighted! They played together for the next three days. When another corgi and BC got out in the yard, he played with them too. No problems whatsoever. Indeed, when Ticker was removed to go to an event, Docket cried, and cried and cried for his friend. And he did not become protective of me when I would go out there. Note, he was off leash the entire time.

    We are taking Docket to the corgi club meeting today (it is cool enough we can leave him in the car if he goes nuts) I have my fingers crossed.

    But what on earth is going on? And how do I fix it? I don't think its mostly resource guarding . . . I think he is genuinely afraid . . . he may also be trying to protect me, and herd me away, but I think he is more scared than aggressive. Our agility instructor thinks that being on leash makes him feel helpless, but we can't take him off during class, its just too dangerous. If I keep Docket focused on me, with a handful of treats, I can get him quite close to dogs he was threatening before.

    Ideas?
     
  2. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    So the only times he's shown these behaviors is when he's on leash?

    When he bit you, how bad was the bite - didn't break the skin, broke the skin, required stiches, etc. - and where did he bite you?

    Are you still seeing the trainer who specializes in aggression?
     
  3. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    In addition to Lizzy's questions, have you had him vetted? Especially to check for any indication of back pain?
     
  4. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    It doesn't sound like he's guarding you, you didn't say the dogs were coming towards you at all or that you were paying attention to them.
    Sounds like fear, many dogs are more fearful on leash because they know they are restricted. if the other dog decided to get aggressive he would have no where to run, so he decides to keep the other dogs away with a big display instead of risking interacting with a possibly aggressive dog when he's stuck on a leash.
    I suggest the "look at that game" which basically involves teaching the dog to look at his trigger (in this case another dog) then back up at you for a treat.
    You start by taking the dog a comfortable distance from the dog, far enough that the dog is pretty calm and can see the other dog but not close enough that he fixates on the other dog or starts throwing a fit. When Docket looks at the other dog click (of course he'll have to know what that is first) and then give a treat. Repeat many, many times. As long as you are not too close your click should break his looking at the other dog, he'll look at you because a treat should be coming now that you've clicked.
    Eventually the hope is that he'll look at the other dog and then quickly back at you even before you click (because he knows it's coming). So then you'll be clicking after his eyes return to you. basically you are teaching him to ignore other dogs by rewarding him for paying attention to them lol.

    slowly you move closer to the other dogs while you continue to reward for glancing at them. practice heeling, sitting, lying down, etc. and still reward for glances.



    Now say he is playing with a dog off leash, then you put him back on leash, will he suddenly become aggressive towards that dog he was fine with before?
    If he is on a long leash does he still react?
    If you walk with him on leash behind another dog who is simply walking straight ahead not looking at him does he still react?

    If he is fine walking behind dogs it might be a good way to break the ice, let him follow a calm dog, get in close and butt sniff (important the other owner knows their dog is tolerant and will not allow their dog to turn around) and then stop, ask for a sit as the other dog moves on and reward Docket for the kind greeting with food. If he is always fine off leash you could also then allow him to play off leash with the dog. You must be careful with this though as if you are not reading him well the dogs could get hurt. probably best to do this with a trainer.

    I also suggest the books:
    Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt
    Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
     
  5. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    Docket's behavior was above reproach at the corgi meeting. He was a perfect gentleman the entire time. So whatever his trigger is, it is not other corgis (but he has gone off at a Jack Russel). In fact, one other corgi growled at him and all he did was softly growl back, and another snapped at him and all he did was give a warning growl and back off. He behaved perfectly (at least for a congregation of corgis)

    To answer questions, the aggression specialist moved to another state. Because his beahvior has improved somewhat, we have not sought another one out yet; I'm a little leary of trainers that I don't know from a more ordinary context (I knew the aggression trainer because she also taught Sarama's CGC class, so I knew she was good and stable).

    He has never drawn blood with his bites, unless a scrape counts. He has left bruises. He usually snaps at my legs, which are right at his level. He got me on the arm yesterday, but that was because I swooped down and grabbed him before he could maul a JRT that had gotten loose and was heading right for him and that he was about the maul. I basically grabbed Docket and tossed him onto the A-Frame, so I don't really blame him for that nip. But none of the bites are serious in the sense that they where puncture wounds or required stitches.

    He saw a vet recently for a basic check up. We didn't discuss the behavior issue, but he checked out fine. He gives no sign of being in pain and is extremely active, and roughhouses with Sarama.

    I did not notice that he became aggresive with the dogs down at the farm when I put him back on leash, but he has a good recall and is usually off leash down there.

    Yes, he reacts on a long leash, although the only place we have tried that is at agility. I'm wondering if the location hypes him up and makes him more nervous.

    No, he generally does not seem to react to other dog's hind ends. THe other dog looking at him or moving towards him (even if friendly) seems to be a factor. I can't say he's never reacted at a rear end, but it doesn't happen often. He has gone after (as in tried to cross a field) to get at a dog he had previously triggered on, but that seems to be a specific dog. He really, really, really hates that white labradoodle.

    Maxy, I have been doing essentially what you describe at the advice of both trainers, and it seems to be responsible for his improvement . . . I know this takes patience. But I wish I really understood WHY he does it . . . and what is really setting him off. THe worst part of it is that it is unpredicatble. He doesn't always do it, so I can't just assume it will happen and cope . . . and yet it happens enough (reliably at agility) that I can't consider it a rare event. But it can't just be agility, because it has happened elsewhere.
     
  6. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    Forgive me....you say "through leadership he improved" can you explain what you mean by this? How did you lead him? I guess what iam asking is for the specific protocol the trainer instructed you to use to fix this. :) :)



    sounds like me that he has cumulative triggers...like dogs are fine, but several dogs might not be....or a dog is fine on a good day, but not on a bad day...if that makes sense.
     
  7. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    The trainers stated that I could not be apprehensive of how he would behave, or at least, I could not show it. I was to at all times to be calm, collected, firm, and in charge. Basically, no matter what HE did, I needed to be calm, reasonable, and (of course) ready to act to prevent disaster. If he did get worked up, I was to calmly, firmly, remove him from the scene. If he started to get worked up, I was to get his attention and have him focus on me.

    The aggression trainer also added that he was to lose all of his priveleges in the house, and bascially get broken down to "bratty puppy", so that I could restablish that all good things come from me, and he must obey me to receive them.

    This is mostly common sense, but when your perfectly normal dog has rather suddenly started lunging at dogs many times his size with the full intent (appearently) to do them harm, it takes some reminding.

    Yes, I think it might be culmalative. He clearly hates poodles and dogs like poodles (I don't know why, I love poodles) but other dogs it seems to be a progression of things. He also seems to lose all sense of what other dogs are telling him. He will repeatedly threaten a flat-coat we know who so obviously wants to play that it is almost sad.

    I should note that he went off at the Jack at agility, not at the corgi meeting. At the corgi meeting he was placid the entire time.
     
  8. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    thanks for the clarification :) I'd say all those things are a good start. :)

    so is he being rewarded at all for good behavior? Lets say a poodle walls by at a distance and he doesn't react, does he get treats? :)
     
  9. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    As many treats and as much praise as he can stand.
     
  10. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    hmm....does he have these outburst often? Every time they happen its very reinforcing to the dog. My thought is that perhaps hes having them often enough to just keep you in the place you are.

    it he being rewarded for focusing on you, for looking at the dog and not reacting or both? :)

    the only other nugget I can think of that hasn't been covered (if I missed it sorry!) is turning the other dog into a training prop...teaching him to target other dogs and then return to you for a treat. :)

    I did basically the same protol as maxy outlined and it took about a YEAR to see predictable results...maybe just more time?
     
  11. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    He has them fairly often. At least once every time we go to agility, or if we come upon a largish dog elsewhere.

    He is rewarded for focusing on me. If he doesn't react, I make him look at me and then reward him.

    I don't really have access to another dog to use as a training tool, but several of the other owners at agility will hold their dogs still after class and let me walk up with him and reward him for being good.

    Yeah, it may be a time thing. He's getting better, slowly. But I'm worried at one day he may really bite me . . . or hurt another dog. He's only 25 lbs, but he's strong and fierce.
     
  12. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    btw sorry, I just re read the thread and I think I asked you som' stuff you already answered, I must have missed one of your posts! :)

    personally I think this is a big piece of it. The way I tackled this type of thing was to prevent the behavior at all costs, tho in your case that would mean dropping agility. Personally I would, but I don't know how much you have invested into it :) But since you are afraid of him hurting you or others, it may be time to really think about it.

    me neither...so I got creative (desparate) and I used my neighbors dogs that were behind fences. You would start with a barking dog (unseen), and then work up to getting close to a fence with a barking dog...then you change the fence from solid to chainlink the dogs from calm to psycho..etc etc :)


    if I may make a suggestion...how about rewarding him for looking at the dog? Put it on cue if it makes you more comfortable. Rewarding him for focusing on you is great...the dog is just another distraction to proof for BUT it does nothing for his feelings about the other dog...click/treat for looking at the other dog will counter condition him to LIKE the other dogs, not just ignore them...which will in turn end the symptoms (the reaction). :)

    once again sorry if Iam recovering som' things that others hit on already. :)
     
  13. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    I've thought about dropping agility, but he has made progress with his beahvior there, and he has the potential to be very good. More importantly, the trainer is working with us and it gives me a reason to take him out and brave it, rather than just avoiding it happening. I'm pretty sure he won't get better if we just keep him in. Frankly, my biggest worry are the occasional idiots in the class. Most people figure out right away that Docket is bad with other dogs, that I have it under control, but to not get near him with their dog. But we get the occasional ninny, like the owners of that danged labradoodle, who just don't get that you don't walk up behind us without warning with a dog Docket manifestly hates. Yes, Docket shouldn't act like that, but on the other hand, what exactly are you trying to accomplish. I could take him to obedience instead (And he'll do rally in the summer, which Sarama has to take off because of the heat), but I think getting out and having to behave is probably the only way we'll break him of this. Notably, when we started this round of classes, he was unmanagable . . . he's now mostly managable, with an ourburst or two.

    The neighbors dogs are a good idea. We will have to try that.

    What really disturbs me is that this started rather suddenly and escalated even more suddenly. He's better now, but I can't for the life of me figure out why a dog that was friendly, if socially clumsy, has developed such a problem. He might be resource guarding me, but it doesn't feel like that most of the time.

    Edit: I am scared he will hurt me or another dog . . . on the other hand, I feel like we have to work through this . . .
     
  14. Criosphynx

    Criosphynx New Member

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    Oh god, trust me I know the feeling...tho its usually people, they want to rush up and hug the cute puppy...I think I could double as a soccer goalie at this point...I've had enough practice.

    my dog was litterally fine and normal one day and insane and afraid of the world the next. I remember the first outburst and having a "so its going to go like that eh?" moment. I think som'times som'thing in their little noggins switches on, maybe from genetics, maybe from a trigger you never saw coming...but yeah I hear ya.


    I saw som'where that you mentioned a vet visit...maybe its time for a thyroid panel?
     
  15. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    A thyroid test is something I didn't think of. I'm pretty sure he is not in pain from his back . . . he's far too atheletic and willing to play with dogs he knows. But that is a possibility.

    At least he is (so far, knocking on wood) fine with people. If someone other than me gets hurt, it will be a fight with another dog (knocking on wood) and not because he attacked them (knocking on wood). And I got nipped last class because I was willing to get bit than to let the other dog or his owner get hurt.

    I would not leave him with a small child, but I wouldn't leave ANY corgi (or any dog, but especially a corgi) with a small child unless I knew the corgi and the child very well and they knew each other very well. I don't let people pet him if he seems tetchy, but that's more to prevent him from becoming afraid of people than because he is afraid now. Fortunatley, the one time a kid actually ran up and grabbed one of my dogs, it was Sarama, who is a lot more stable, even if she looks more scary. I would defineatley block a kid from Docket, but more to stop a new problem than because of an existing one . . . thank goodness (knock on wood)

    Of course, it worried me that the mother of one of the owners at agility, she showed up to hang out, said she'd never heard of a dog that was only aggressive to dogs. I don't know what planet she's from, but if that's a common misperception, it worries me. Docket has never been a problem with people. He used to ignore strangers, now he's friendly with them. Even when my mother (who he had never met) came to visit and was in the house, he was just as nice as could be. I don't want people to think he's a mean dog. He's not a mean dog. HE's really a pretty good dog . . .he just has an issue with other dogs.
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Actually, although it seems sudden, remember, he was a puppy. At around 18 to 24 months he became a "man." LOL. These past months he most likely has been going through terrific hormonal changes and leaving puppy hood, where you didn't see this behavior toward other dogs and going toward being fully mature. This often causes a dog that formerly got along with all the dogs to suddenly or almost suddenly start getting snarky toward them. All dogs don't like all dogs, no matter what we do. We can teach them to "behave" themselves and even associate other dogs with good things, but we can't always do enough to combat the entire issue. The bit about the leash on or off is common. But as to why he does what he does, try not to get too hung up on that. It doesn't much matter why. The treatment is basically the same. I think there was lots of good advice about clicking/treating when he sees a dog and all that. Control Unleashed, Click to Calm are books that should help with this.

    The biting of the humans is another problem... a big one, imo, and I don't like the sound of that at all, even though he may be re-directing his aggression without thinking. It's one thing that a dog re-directs once or twice, but to be making a habit of this....um, don't like the sound of that. Shaky temperament comes to my mind before just about anything. That you picked him up and stuck him on the A frame shouldn't be a trigger for a dog with a strong, stable temperament to bite you.... Unless you've been putting him on the defensive as a regular way of interacting with him, forcing him, scolding him, causing him fear (and I don't believe that's your way).....no, I don't see any reason for him to have bitten you and Mike. (I'm sure he has his reasons, but....) Or... unless you've let him have his own way about every little thing for quite some time, no.

    For this, I would get a certified behaviorist to evaluate him for your very best odds. Your trainer that you had sounds very good, but I'd still look into getting hold of a very reputable, certified veterinary behaviorist to evaluate him and give you a hand.

    And I agree with getting a full blood work up from a vet...thyroid and anything else medical that could cause a sudden change in behavior. It could be that he is maturing that he gets snarky with other dogs, but the behavior toward you and Mike needs to be looked at from every possible angle.

    I sure hope things turn around for you. Having a dog that bites humans isn't any fun at all. I think he can be helped most likely. But imo, you need to really get on it with someone who knows behavior inside out, who can see your dog in person before he gets more opportunities to practice this behavior. And rule out any possible medical causes first. I think the Internet is great for certain issues. When dogs start biting humans, it's time for some face to face, one on one. And there's no time to waste.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  17. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I agree, a thyroid test wouldn't be a bad idea.

    Also, can you find a chiro vet? Ares gets back pain, but until recently - with worsening arthritis at 10 years old - was always very athletic. You would've though he couldn't be in pain, but the chiro vet could easily get pain responses when she examined him. Drive can mask pain quite remarkable. He does tend to be a "strike first" kind of dog, especially when too close to a big dog -- which started after a labX put his paws on Ares' back. I don't know if the lab actually hurt Ares, but it was sufficient to make Ares very defensive. It doesn't take much to turn that switch.

    Crio's advice about rewarding the Docket when he's looking at other dogs is excellent. :)
     
  18. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Docket!!! Happy 2nd birthday lil' munchkin! I'd say that calls for pictures... ;)

    Before I even read the part about him turning 2, I suspected that. He is entering social maturity! A very, very awkward period for both owner and dog. Before Fozzie turned 2 he had never so much as growled at another dog, but starting then he got progressively more & more reactive. Has Docket ever bitten another dog or are these simply displays? He sounds like an intensely reactive, insecure dog... but not an aggressive one.

    Corgis tend to be very fearful of other dogs, and react loudly/dramatically, in my experience. Cardigans especially. I have NOT met a Cardigan who wasn't reactive but I also haven't met one who was really DA. Luckily though, they're also very smart dogs and highly food motivated. With Fozzie, I started by setting him up for success only. No overwhelming environments. No close contact with other dogs on leash. I made every experience he had around other dogs highly rewarding, and played "look at that" (from Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt) constantly on walks, in front of the dog park, in classes, etc. He went from being very growly & lunging at every single dog he encountered on leash to laying down calmly while a Pit Bull is screaming/tugging insanely 3 feet away from him in Rallyo class. Counter conditioning is POWERFUL, it doesn't just teach him a command or supress his outbursts, it changes the way he feels and naturally reacts. Clickers make it 1000x easier to mark good behavior.

    Personally, I don't think it has much at all to do with "being a leader"... that's alpha theory crap. He has proven that it has nothing to do with how much you spoil him by acting even worse with your husband. Although you should set clear boundaries and make him work for the resources you provide, every Corgi deserves to be spoiled! :p The way I am a leader is by setting my dog up for success (which includes avoiding overstimulating environments and protecting him from obnoxious/dangerous/unleashed dogs), teaching my dog that the world around him is wonderful and safe, and that I am the most fun, rewarding being in existence.
     
  19. Lilavati

    Lilavati Arbitrary and Capricious

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    One, I want to thank everyone for their advice . . . and more is welcome! It is a great relief to think that this may be a factor mostly of his age, and not of anything I have done, or of some incident that occured that traumatized him somehow.

    Two, Dober, the biting thing worries me too. I have not consulted a behaviorist yet because one: I have been the only target (and Mike once) and because I'm pretty sure that he is either redirecting aggression or trying to get me to move away from the hideous, unholy poodle that is about to eat our souls. When he gets like this, he is jumping at the end of his lead (how ever short I have it), lunging, growling (real gurgling threat growls), barking, and snapping at the air. That's why the A-frame incident did not upset me more than it did . . . I grabbed a snapping, snarling, hysterical corgi by the scruff of the neck and pretty much literally threw him onto the A-frame (tried grabbing him in my arms, but that made him so furious I shifted to the scruff), then body blocked him from getting down . . . if he nipped my arm in that, I am worried about his behavior, but I'm not in the least bit surprised. That was one angry, frightened little dog I had just picked up and made feel more vulnerable. I wouldn't have done it at all except there was no way to prevent the little JRT from getting to Docket in the context of the situation . . . I couldn't grab the JRT and restrain Docket at the same time . . . so I moved Docket. Bascially, I think when this happens, his brain is off. Otherwise he is a very gentle, good natured little dog. Thus, I'm not sure what a behavorist can do . . . we need to stop him from getting that upset . . . if we do, the nipping will stop. If he showed this behavior in any other context, I'd already have called a behaviorist. But I am taking your advice under advisement . . . if he doesn't get better over the next month or so, I don't see much choice . . . I don't want to require stiches from my own dog.

    Three: Gonzo, though I am not sure that the agression trainer was right about the reason, we aren't really talking dominance theory here. She was not a alcolyte of Milan, or I would not have let her anywhere near Docket or Sarama. But she does believe that your dog has to have faith in you and your judgement, and respect for you and your judgement. In this context, the idea was that if I was unconcerned, that sooner or later Docket would figure out that there was nothing to be concerned about. Now, in the case of Docket, she did think he was spoiled and didn't know his place, and thus thought I was a precious item he needed to protect. I guess that is dominance theory, but I didn't find it to be the sort of pseudoscientitic crap thats so popular. The odd thing is, now that I think of it, the behavior she thought was out of line, in terms of showing he was spoiled, started about the same time as the DA issues. Maybe he was demonstrating he was a big boy now? Although I am beginning to think that perhaps she blamed me too much for his problems (I was devistated) I did, and do, trust this woman, and I never saw her treat a dog with anything other than kindness and respect . . . and that includes the times I worked with her with aggressive dogs (using Sarama as a "therapy" dog to convince them that other dogs aren't bad). I willl start carrying a clicker at agility to mark when he is being nice and calm . . . I'd stopped carrying them because I don't need them out there and always lose them.

    THree: I'm going to look into a thyroid test. I'll see about a chiro vet . . .or something like that. I've wanted to get him X-rayed anyway to make sure he is sound. But he is very, very active and does not put on weight, and thus a thyroid problem would make sense. He was by far the skinniest corgi at the meeting, which is partially due to his tiny size, but this is a corgi that refuses to get fat.

    Four, also to Dober . . . we have never been rough with him. But he is somewhat afraid of open hands. We have wondered if his prior owners actually smacked him hard at some point.
     
  20. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Oh?

    Maybe it's regional?

    Because most of the corgis I've met aren't fearful of other dogs at all, aren't reactive at all. But then again, most of them have been pemmies. Or cardis at a cardi show, where they were surrounded by mostly cardis. Have met a coupl of cardis in other settings though, and neither one was fearful or reactive.

    So, in my part of the country, I'd say that's absolutely false as far as pemmies...but I'd also say that in my part of the country there aren't enough cardis ~ and expecially not enough pet cardis ~ to really know what's going on with the breed.

    Interesting. And sad.
     

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