Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by PWCorgi, Dec 27, 2007.
I think both breeds are beautiful, but I prefer a good coat for outside activities.
I'll add my comment.
I've been a GSD owner for the last 7 years. I just got my Doberman.
I will agree with the fact that the Doberman is more person oriented. Nyx is already focused on us. She has already managed to figure out that she has *two* people and enjoys that fact. She likes her toys and the other dogs but she will grab a toy and come and flop on us. She can even take naps on the bed at 10 weeks because she is interested in us. She is calm and focused. Its quite fascinating in such a young dog to see that.
Nox, my GSD loves us, he adores us, he is a Velcro dog, but he is more thing oriented. Toys, the other dogs, what is happening now, let him count the cats. He is most spastic in general and he vibrates with energy. You can almost see it pouring off of him. As a puppy he'd start screaming and twitching from sheer excitement at seeing a toy.
The end result is very similar but the dogs are very different. I don't think I'll get another GSD but I can see myself with more then one Doberman.
Also the GSD BLOWS his coat. I wind up using the forced air dryer on him in an attempt to get the coat out quickly. Bleh.
Dobes are similar in bone and build to Malinois and Dutch Shepherds - is that to say that mals and dutchies aren't good sport dogs either?
Sorry, I hear that a lot, that my breed isn't big and thick enough to be an effective sport dog. I myself do not do bitework with my dogs, but I do take issue with people who say they're ill-suited physically do it.
For one that does not think a Doberman can be an effective working dog.
Please go here DVG America National Champion List and look at the year 2005.
I happen to know that dog and that handler. My GSD and both of my mothers dog comes from him.
Doberman are excellent working dogs. Just because they are exquisitely beautiful doesn't mean they are functional. As an afghan hound owner I know that my dogs are judges on their hair quality and many people think they can not hunt just because they are lovely to look at.
The two should not be confused.
I fixed it...
I actually think the gigantic dogs are at a disadvantage compared to the medium-sized, smaller-boned and more athletic working dogs.
I also have to wonder how realistic sport work is compared to actual personal protection. In real life, is a dog honestly going to hit an assailant's conveniently extended arm every time? Are they really going to hit with such force as they would on a padded sleeve on a stationary target?
I agree RD - just becuase a dog is small, it doesn't mean that he's not solid.
Ronin is small for a dobe - a little less than 27" at the shoulder and 70lbs... but he's a friggin' tank:
Thanks, I was trying to get it out before I went and made lunch.
Just like many working breeds, there are breeding lines that are better suited for work than others. Not every Doberman can or will work, but if you find the right lines, they can be hard working dogs. We had a woman come to our dog club recently with a 1 year old male Dobe. There was no way he would work. He was fearful and terrified of men. Obviously he had some issues, and obviously there was no way he had the temperament or genetics to work. He was a nice looking dog and all but the mental part just wasn't there. Another girl who I train with has a nice Dobe male who is good sized, very athletic and graceful in his movements, and probably could at least pass the evaluation test for our club.
As far as build goes, our Dane looks like a fragile dog, with her long legs and long neck and thin build. I tell you what, she is one of the strongest dogs I've ever seen. Don't let looks deceive you.
I don't see much difference between medium sized dogs like Mals and some of the GSDs, and the larger dogs like the Bouvs and the bigger GSDs at our club. The smaller dog isn't always quicker and more agile, and can't hit as hard. The male Bouv and Gunnar are both dogs who are larger, but are also fast and agile, and hit like a tank. When you hear a nice thump when one of them hits the decoy, and they drive him to the ground, you know they are hitting hard. I have yet to see the smaller GSD (who is from Czech lines and is a VERY hard dog, but is only 67lbs) or any of the mals do that.
RD, regarding your question about how a protection dog will hit vs a sport dog- a protection dog will hit the center mass of the target. In training the decoy will try and sidestep the dog, so they learn not to fly through the air (what makes a Sch dog look so dramatic), but to slow down a bit, hunker down, and then target the center of the target. That could be the middle of the back, the butt, legs, armpits, whatever is there. That's what they are trained to do. Even if an arm is hanging out, they hit center mass. There is definitely a technique to catching a dog on the sleeve when he's learning to target center mass. You need to absorb the dog into you, as you can injure the dog if you resist him. It only takes one bad catch to jam a dogs neck and put him out of protection training for good.
There are dogs that succeed in Sch who could do real protection work, but not all of them. Sch never really tests a dogs limits. Sch is a choreographed routine. Same thing every time, and the decoys are there to make the dog look good and play them up, not break them down and drive them off the field like a French Ring or PSA decoy tries to do. I would say that ANY dog who can do true protection work can do Sch with an adjustment to training methods- the stability and temperament is there in that kind of dog.
But for their original jobs, I think the lighter build is fine.
GSDs (after they became police/military dogs vs sheep herders) have to hit and hold. On the streets it would probably be a very good idea to take the guy to the ground. It favors size and strength to hang on.
The Dobie however, is personal protection. It would seem that for the original breeding by a tax collector, the dog would not have to hold very long, it would be first a deterrent and then allow the owner to escape. You don't need a 90lb GSD or Bouvier to create a big time distraction to the attacker.
My oldest Czech male who is nearly 70# hits very hard and can easily knock the decoy down. He moves so fast that his impact is incredible. Bigger doesnt mean stronger or more powerful.
It is MUCH harder to get a dog that does PP to move to Schutzhund than vice versa. PP dogs civil drives are way higher and would more and likely be considered "dirty" in the sport of schutzhund. Protection is not a game to these dogs. Its alot easier to give a dog a little (ie a sleeve in schutzhund) then giving them more (body suits) than to give them full range and then tell them they can only bite one specific area.
PP dogs have a wider range of personalities than schutzhund dogs. Sch dogs only need a decent prey drive to get titled. PP dogs need to be confident (either as a whole or can be over confident where they love a good fight and know they will win, and seek out a fight). Then there are sharp dogs who are always on guard (these can be great PP dogs IN THE RIGHT HANDS ONLY!!! These are not for family/home protection. They are for people with experience who know how to ease the dog's stress throughout its life. It doesnt necessarily mean they are weak nerved, its just they have a very low threshold for agression, and these dogs must be watched. It all depends on what kind of dog YOU want. And what you expect from him/her.
showdawgs my point on pp dogs moving to sch is based on ability only. The pp dog has the ability to do sch- it might not be easy to retrain the dog to do a bark and hold instead of a bite, and other aspects of the sport, but the overall drive and ability is there, where many sch dogs wouldn't make it in pp at all.
Bigger doesn't always mean more powerful, but bigger doesn't always mean slower either. A 90# dog moving at the same speed as a 70# dog is going to hit harder simply because of the difference in mass. It's like being hit by a linebacker instead of a defensive back.
Ok, I understand that, and I completely agree that most Sch dogs cannot do PP.
My WG working line male (100#) is very fast and agile for his size, but my 70# male can run circles around him, not because he is smaller, but because he is very intense in all that he does, including running. It depends on the dogs drive and intensity not size. I used to think that smaller GSD's weren't powerful until I got a smaller male and realized that Czech line dogs (who tend to be smaller) do make up for their size with their agression and drive.
Something else I was thinking of- regarding targeting bites in PP. We actually spend a good bit of time teaching the dog to target bites on the suit. Back bites on each shoulder, middle of the back, frontal bites, leg bites. It's not so much of a run down field and bite anywhere you want, though, if a dog does bite anywhere and has a good full bite and doesn't act dirty by moving all over, that's ok. Our unfortunate decoy got one right in the butt from Gunnar last weekend, and it was a good bite and he didn't let go, and dragged him to the ground by the rear. If he was all over, biting the rear, then moving to other targets, then we'd go back to more basics to reinforce one good clean bite. Targeting is important because if you get to more advanced stages where weapons are involved, you want the dog to target the weapon hand. Doing a leg bite on a bad guy who has a knife or gun isn't going to be very productive for the dog.
I completely understand. Thats why I feel true PP dogs cannot do sch because they target areas of the body that can cause them harm instead of just focusing on a sleeve. In sch they would target the stick/whip. I learned that the hard way. I started Schutzhund with Keelo (my czech male) and realized his civil drive was to high. He has a nice full bite but when the helper went to tap him with the stick he immediately went for that arm. I dont like giving my dog only one option when it comes to biting. I dont want them to think they can only go for the arm if a dangerous situation does arise. And in all honesty, if I was in danger I could care less if my dog has a nice full grip, I want that person taken down any way they can.
what is PP?
I cant understand showdawgz or DanL post without knowing what PP is. haha.
This is fascinating information...I really want to go see a trial now.
What exactly is personal protection? I keep reading that Dobermans are people-oriented because they were originally bred for that specific job, but I'm not entirely sure what it entails. Take the human bodyguard who protects a public figure from being harmed/harassed, could his/her job be done by a protection-trained Doberman?
I've never interacted with a Doberman, so I don't know what the breed's personality is like, but appearance-wise they are my favorite breed -- they're such insanely beautiful dogs!
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