Do you want a kid/kids?

[Puckstop31]

You know that saying 'everything happens for a reason'? Because of my very poorly worded post, God humbled me this morning. What I said made my devotional time this morning hit home. Proverbs 15:1-4 if you care to check it out.

Clearly what I said could have been said in a better way. I apologize to those who I offended with the harsh terms. (Good grief Brian... Why do you always have to bring politics into things? ugh. LOL)

When Tanya got pregnant, that was a totally :yikes: moment.

"I" was not ready. "We" did not have enough of A and B and C. "We" wanted to do X, Y and Z first. Ya know what? None of that matters a hill of beans anymore. Everything changed and it could not have been better for us. To the crux of Fran's post... Having Hannah was part of the catalyst to BE the things you listed. That kid has been used to teach me so many things....

So, I guess what I should have said was something like this... Nobody likes getting out of their comfort zone. Clearly to many here, having a child is WAY outside your comfort zone. But what can ever really change in the world until more people are willing to do things that might seem "uncomfortable"?

Otherwise good people who do not have children of their own are, IMO, really missing out on one of the better things in life. I'm not saying you can't be happy being childless. But having a kid(s) brings a better kind of happy. Its rough. Its frustrating. But I think about the person I was and look at the person I am becoming. The person I am becoming is better. God gave us Hannah to make that happen.

 

[Taqroy]

I don't think becoming a mom (or a wife for that matter) somehow takes away from who you are. I do think it becomes a part of you, but so do the jobs most of us do outside of work. The first time we meet new people, one of the first "getting to know you" questions we ask is "so what do you do for a living?"

I freaked out when I got married and changed my name. I seriously felt like part of my identity had been stolen and I resented Matt for being the catalyst for that change. And, while marriage is basically living together with rings, just the status change of being married played a part in that too. We both had expectations that we were unaware of (that I realize now came from our parents' marriages) and we had a really hard time getting over that and making our marriage. I don't think you can ever really change without losing something.

(Beanie that's not really directed at you, it's just a tangent my thoughts went on. )

That said, I fully expect that having kids will change many of the fundamental aspects of my life and my marriage. Does that bother me? Of course, I really like my life. Do I worry about it? Yes. Will I regret it? I imagine that I will sometimes. I don't think people who don't have kids are selfish, I think they're realistic and/or scared of the expectations that kids bring. If they feel that way WHY would anyone want them to have kids? Yeah, there's a chance that they'd be good parents anyway but it is flat out WRONG to play with defenseless human life on that chance.

I wish these threads didn't always end in arguments because I think there's valid points on both sides that get lost in the roiling mass of hurt.

 

[LindaJD]

I don't think having a kid makes someone a better person. I don't think it is selfish to not have kids at all. I think it is selfish to have kids to define who you are or what you want to be. Being a mother did not make me a better person, I was a good person before I had kids. It made me put someone else's needs before mine, but who is to say that makes me a better person? My values and morals are the same as before I had kids. My happiness is up to me to make, not my kids, not my husbands, just me. I was happy before I had kids, I was just as happy after. I have a few friends who never had kids and they are just as happy as the ones who did, a few are getting ready to retire and they are loving their lives as much as the ones whose kids are getting married and starting their own lives. They have close family and friends that they love and enjoy as much as people who have had children. They aren't these lonely people who sit at home and wonder "what if".
Your life is what YOU make of it, I don't think relying on someone else to define you is being fair to anyone.
I have 3 kids, I am glad I had them and love them all so much, but I know my life would have been just as full if I had never have had them, it just would have been full with other things. My kids have brought me much joy and some heartache along the way I'm sure I would have had joy and heartache if I had chosen a different path. Who is to say my joy is any greater than a childless person joy?

 

[ACooper]

First let me say I can kind of see one of Puck's point about the selfishness. That is, if you have all these great qualities-----work ethic, morals, honesty, responsibility, kindness, patience and/or whatever other wonderful qualities you possess, (we know you have at least a few because you're a dog lover! LOL) it's selfish not to pass those things on to the next generation. Instead you're letting the asshats/bums/jerks procreate without end and THEY are teaching the 'values' that are being passed along instead.

As stated, I can see it..........doesn't mean I agree with it, LOL, but I can see it

And with the women being miserable...I meant more that its not about them being moms, more often its probably them just being miserable about themselves. If it wasnt about being mom, it would be about their job, or their relationship, or etc. Some people are just negative and blame evreyone around them for it.

Yes, THIS! A million, billion, gazillion times this!! Tell me you don't know people with ZERO kids who are just the same. They aren't happy unless they have something/someone to complain about. Period. They never get the fact that THEY need to change......it's not everything around them that needs to change.

I just tend to find older or old people without kids looking mostly..... empty. Not always unhappy, just unfulfilled.

As you age, friends disappear, people move on, have kids, and they're just left. Their spouse/partner/friends die and then....

Agree.

That being said I don't give a monkeys if people don't procreate. There's a lot of people i wish wouldn't.

DEFINITELY AGREE! LOL

 

[Shai]

I'm genuinely glad that you love being a parent, that having a child caused you to take responsibility and become a better person.

What is true for you is not true for everyone.

Some people spend a great deal of time testing the boundaries of their comfort zones for the simple purpose of being alive and becoming a better contributor to the world around the. A catalyst in the form of an infant is not a necessary ingredient in that process for all people. There are people who possess a strong sense of social responsibility without needing the push of "making the world better for my children" or whatever the cliche line is.

People, whether they are parents or not, seek fulfillment in their lives. How they do so will vary.

"You don't have to be wrong for me to be right." And vice versa.

When Tanya got pregnant, that was a totally :yikes: moment.

"I" was not ready. "We" did not have enough of A and B and C. "We" wanted to do X, Y and Z first. Ya know what? None of that matters a hill of beans anymore. Everything changed and it could not have been better for us. To the crux of Fran's post... Having Hannah was part of the catalyst to BE the things you listed. That kid has been used to teach me so many things....

So, I guess what I should have said was something like this... Nobody likes getting out of their comfort zone. Clearly to many here, having a child is WAY outside your comfort zone. But what can ever really change in the world until more people are willing to do things that might seem "uncomfortable"?

Otherwise good people who do not have children of their own are, IMO, really missing out on one of the better things in life. I'm not saying you can't be happy being childless. But having a kid(s) brings a better kind of happy. Its rough. Its frustrating. But I think about the person I was and look at the person I am becoming. The person I am becoming is better. God gave us Hannah to make that happen.

 

[Shai]

First let me say I can kind of see one of Puck's point about the selfishness. That is, if you have all these great qualities-----work ethic, morals, honesty, responsibility, kindness, patience and/or whatever other wonderful qualities you possess, (we know you have at least a few because you're a dog lover! LOL) it's selfish not to pass those things on to the next generation. Instead you're letting the asshats/bums/jerks procreate without end and THEY are teaching the 'values' that are being passed along instead.

Ignoring differences of opinion on whose morals, etc. should be passed on to the next generation...

Parenting your birthchildren is hardly the only way to accomplish these things. Some of the most influential people in my life, both from my childhood and as an adult, have been more distant relatives and people who are wholly unrelated to me...mentors (private and professional), peers, instructors, etc. As part of a society, we all influence each other to a degree, and those who put concerted effort into being a stabilizing or influential figure in the lives of young people around them can have an incredible effect on the adults they become. We may not show up on a genealogy chart except as a sidebar, but to say we do not contribute to or have a stake the next generation's development is incredibly short-sighted.

 

[crazedACD]

I'm 10 and 12 years apart from my brother and sister and I have put the work in. I've changed diapers and heated up bottles and gotten up with babies and watched them learn their ABCs. Anyone that says I don't know what it's like, oh I've put in the time and it's not for me.

At the moment, I've woken up 1.5 hours earlier than necessary to drive my brother and sister (12 and 15yo) to school because my mother said it is 'too cold' for them to walk. Neither wore a jacket and my sister has flip flops on. I could see the school if I stood up and looked out my window. I've poked and prodded them to get up for school. I put their dishes away, and cleaned up the kitchen and vacuumed this morning. I have to be at work at 10am. My mom won't be home until 9:30am, two days a week. And then for the other three nights, I get to be guilted into staying 'home' because my mom feels bad they are home alone. Sorry, it's frustrating. This would be life with kids? No thanks. I'm quite happy with pets.

 

[Jules]

Ugh. I was wondering when THAT would come out. I am not sure if I want a child. Probably.

But I don't need a child to fulfill me or make that better person. Will a parent and child experience a different kind of love? Sure. But that doesn't mean it's superior to love I experience right now. I hope by the time I have a child (if) that I am that better person.

Not sure who said it, but there are plenty of old people in nursing homes, who seem completely forgotten by their family. A child does not mean you'll be taken care of when you're old.

ETA: I think the whole "selfish" argument is as valid as me saying that everyone who decided to have their own child is selfish because there are so many kids needing a home. You know, since having kids ties into the whole greater good of society..

 

[Zizzy35]

No kiddos for me.

 

[ACooper]

.....Not sure who said it, but there are plenty of old people in nursing homes, who seem completely forgotten by their family. A child does not mean you'll be taken care of when you're old.

Dizzy mentioned older people with no children, and I agreed, but we never said children would take care of you when you're old! Nor did I read it from someone else.........if it's written in this thread, I missed it.

She didn't say they were unhappy either, many just seemed 'unfulfilled'.........and IMO a big part of that reason is because there will ALWAYS be what if. No matter which way you choose to go there will be what if. If I thought of sky diving but was too afraid to try it, when I get too old for it I'll still wonder about it..........we're humans! It's what we do, LOL

 

[Shai]

I know an awful lot of older couples without children. Many of them remain engaged in their communities, continue to volunteer, visit family when they can, have many friends and acquaintances though of course most are younger, etc.

If that's what unfulfilled twilight years look like, sign me up.

 

[sassafras]

it seemed like all of my objections and reasons were just brushed aside with "Oh, you'll change your mind when it's your own."

Nothing annoys me quite as much as this. YOU may have changed your mind when it was YOUR own, but I am not you. I find it so incredibly rude that someone else assumes that they know me better than I know themselves based on an experience THEY had.

Having a child for any reason except wanting a child and wanting to be a parent.. is selfish.

But someone has to pay for all this stuff!!!

Whenever this conversation comes up I cringe. It is always the same. A parent says something non child wanting people find offensive so non child wanting people come back with some very harsh words.

There's a lot of spin there. Why not either "A parent says something very harsh..." or "...so non child wanting people come back with something parents find offensive" ??

It's inherently built into our culture that in this discussion parents are right and non-parents are wrong. And that I DO find that offensive, because it is. No matter how much people couch statements like this in "oh but you know to each their own" or "I don't really care if people have kids or not", projecting what makes YOU happy and fulfilled onto other people and essentially calling childless people as unhappy, unfulfilled lesser beings IS offensive and harsh. Like this:

I just tend to find older or old people without kids looking mostly..... empty. Not always unhappy, just unfulfilled.

... is pretty harsh and belittling.

But having a kid(s) brings a better kind of happy.

It makes YOUR happiness better. That does not somehow make one type of happiness objectively "better" than another - stop projecting your happiness onto me. I always wonder why people seem to need to belittle MY choices, happiness and fulfillment in order to validate THEIR happiness, choices, and fulfillment... and sad to say it comes from parents more than anyone else, so I get pretty salty about it after years and years of hearing the same things over and over.


ETA: And, by the way, how is "I want kids to make ME happy and fulfilled" less selfish than not having kids? Never understood that, either.

 

[Doberluv]

I don't think having a kid makes someone a better person. I don't think it is selfish to not have kids at all. I think it is selfish to have kids to define who you are or what you want to be. Being a mother did not make me a better person, I was a good person before I had kids. It made me put someone else's needs before mine, but who is to say that makes me a better person? My values and morals are the same as before I had kids. My happiness is up to me to make, not my kids, not my husbands, just me. I was happy before I had kids, I was just as happy after. I have a few friends who never had kids and they are just as happy as the ones who did, a few are getting ready to retire and they are loving their lives as much as the ones whose kids are getting married and starting their own lives. They have close family and friends that they love and enjoy as much as people who have had children. They aren't these lonely people who sit at home and wonder "what if".
Your life is what YOU make of it, I don't think relying on someone else to define you is being fair to anyone.
I have 3 kids, I am glad I had them and love them all so much, but I know my life would have been just as full if I had never have had them, it just would have been full with other things. My kids have brought me much joy and some heartache along the way I'm sure I would have had joy and heartache if I had chosen a different path. Who is to say my joy is any greater than a childless person joy?

This^^^:hail:

 

[Doberluv]

I know an awful lot of older couples without children. Many of them remain engaged in their communities, continue to volunteer, visit family when they can, have many friends and acquaintances though of course most are younger, etc.

If that's what unfulfilled twilight years look like, sign me up.

:rofl1::rofl1:Love that! Too funny!

 

[Puckstop31]

Nothing annoys me quite as much as this. YOU may have changed your mind when it was YOUR own, but I am not you. I find it so incredibly rude that someone else assumes that they know me better than I know themselves based on an experience THEY had.

All I am doing is sharing my thoughts an experiences. Nothing else. If you choose to be upset by my opinion, so be it.

But someone has to pay for all this stuff!!!

I already apologized for saying that. Very poor choice on my part.

It's inherently built into our culture that in this discussion parents are right and non-parents are wrong. And that I DO find that offensive, because it is. No matter how much people couch statements like this in "oh but you know to each their own" or "I don't really care if people have kids or not", projecting what makes YOU happy and fulfilled onto other people and essentially calling childless people as unhappy, unfulfilled lesser beings IS offensive and harsh. Like this:



... is pretty harsh and belittling.

Only if you let it offend you. It's still a free society.

 

[CaliTerp07]

I am boggled by "not having children is a selfish decision". Here's my week.

Mondays - Stay late for "talent show club", giving the kids an opportunity to practice and prepare their routines for the school show in June
Tuesdays - Volunteer tutor kids in the poor neighborhood next to my school
Wednesdays - Lead a middle school Bible study through church
Thursdays - Stay late to offer homework help to my own students
Friday - Stay late after school to mentor a girl whose mother died this year, who's interested in a career in animals
Saturday - visit nursing homes with Lucy to see the old people whose kids don't come visit (okay, that's really only twice a month--I guess the other two days are selfish time)
Sunday - Church, take lunches into downtown DC for the homeless (once a month), small group

I could not do ANY of those volunteering things if I had a kid (except maybe therapy dog work, if my husband was willing to stay home and watch the kid, and the kid chose to never play sports or do any activities on Saturdays). I am touching, mentoring, molding dozens of people on a daily basis. I could trade that all in and effect 1 life. But then I look at who the volunteers at school and church are who are leading our young tweens and teens. They're ALL non-parents. Every. Single. One. That means none of the parents are leading clubs, none of the parents lead Bible studies at church, none of the parents are offering free tutoring to the kids who need it most. The school is DESPERATE for volunteers from 3-5pm everyday when the kids are looking for positive outlets after school. These are not selfish people. These are giving, loving people who care so much for kids who aren't even related to them.

I don't see how it's less selfish to positively impact 1 life that I created than to help 100's of lives that I interact with through work and volunteering.

If you want to think I'm selfish, go for it. But I think most would disagree. I don't need a child to learn how to put someone else before myself. Jesus taught me that.

 

[Renee750il]

I think Cali's done an excellent job of illustrating that there is no ONE path that's right for every person. Choosing to be a parent doesn't make those who don't wrong, nor does choosing to NOT be a parent make those who do wrong.

Just do what you feel is right for you, and respect (not merely tolerate) the choices of others, even though sometimes when you're happy and fulfilled it can be really difficult to not want everyone to feel the same thing you are

“Tolerance implies a gratuitous assumption of the inferiority of other faiths to one's own†~Ghandi

 

[jess2416]

Great post, Fran.

I really weep at how many neglected, unwanted kids there are because their parents had kids for reasons like, "It's the thing to do," etc.
Hannah is a great kid. She has great parents. I've seen pics of vids of you with her, and if I had half of the love from my father that you give to Hannah, I would have probably grown up a very different person.
Some people really want kids, some people don't. Some people are fantastic parents, some suck and should have been speutered before being allowed to procreate. I don't think there's a wrong answer when it comes to wanting to have kids. Sometimes knowing yourself, knowing you wouldn't be a good parent, and choosing not to have children because of that is the selfless thing to do.

This x10000000000

 

[ACooper]

I don't need a child to learn how to put someone else before myself. Jesus taught me that.

:hail::hail::hail:

And for the record, I know this can be learned in other ways besides Jesus or having children before anyone gets offended by that statement.

 

[sparks19]

I don't uderstand why people think you can't do volunteer work WITH your children. Maybe not with an infant but I know lots of families that make volunteer work a family affair. They all go out together and help in areas all over the city and as the kids get older they start doing their own volunteering.

I am really NOT tryin to be the bragging mother lol but people are always commenting on what a great opportunity for mission work Hannah is. She is such a people person and I am always amazed at how people respond to her.

So you can have one life and raise them up to change many other lives.

Not saying you have to have children to touch lives but the idea that you can't help others anymore if you have a kid is not always correct