Did anyone else see this? Just horrific!!!

Dekka

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Umm So you don't have answers.

I was asking in all honestly I have never talked to people who like cesar who have any real dog knowledge. I HONESTLY want to know if you condone flooding and his other methods. I do know people who condone abusive training and are very open about it. You keep saying things but never backing them up. So if people with reactive dogs are because they are reactive (so you say and Milan) what do you say if only 1/8 of my dogs are reactive? Am I 1/8 reactive. Or are you willing to concede that past experiences and genetics have something to do with it?

You seem to see negativity where it doesn't exist.... interesting.
 

Doberluv

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Sure. I also consider the possibility that loud, reactive dogs have loud, reactive owners and the dogs are mirroring the humans they live with. Unless this is addressed, the specific methods chosen have a reduced chance of success, IMO.

Yet another Cesar-ism.
Yes, I can imagine that it is another Cesarism.

There are a few things that science shows us about how dogs learn and how they don't learn. Of course, we can't know everything that's in a dog's mind. We don't even know what is in another human's mind or for that matter, our own minds. LOL. But one thing that has been tested in a variety of ways, studied and observed, not only by scientists, but myself with my own dogs over the years is that they don't imitate humans very well...don't learn by observation of humans. I'm convinced that our moods rub off on them or affect them. That's pretty apparent. And they do understand many of our social cues, but not all. But as far as mirroring their owners in behavior per say, I don't see much evidence of that.

I, for one am not a calm person. I bite my nails, smoke, get exciteable when I'm upset or when I'm having a wee of a time. I'm very emotional and can act like a chimpanzee, waving my arms around and shrieking. I don't act like a dog, but more like a primate. My dogs are playful, alert and reactive in appropriate ways....for dogs. They notice things in their environment and if it's something that is alarming to them, they'll bark. I think there's a deer outside right now and one of the dogs is barking, just one bark, then a pause, then another bark and a pause. LOL. Yes, reacting. What's wrong or abnormal with that?

I can be laughing and acting crazy when my daughter and I get together. I mean, we can be so loud and silly. We sing karaoke on my machine and crack up laughing. My son can yell from the other room to shut up. And what are the dogs doing at this time? Often times, they're sound asleep right on the couch 3 feet away from us. Or awake but just chilling. Loud, chaotic, reactive...that's us. But not necessarily the dogs. Another time, one or more of them might like to join in the fun and get playful too. It just depends on their own mood sometimes.

I, for one wouldn't like to see a dog that didn't react or show any emotion, a dog that is subdued or supressed or avoiding the obvious.....b-o-r-i-n-g....
 

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Flooding partially depends on the temperment of the dog and the skill of the handler who walks with them through their fears. It is a delicate walk.

I'm not a big fan of what I would call "cold" flooding. Where the dog is left with no social support (from either another calm dog, calm human, or both preferably) to help them through the experience.

I support and use flooding in certain situations to break through the cycle of fear. I personally believe this is less stressful in the long run (for certain dogs) than prolonging their fear through the slow process of desensitization.

Again, no one size fits all. It depends upon the dog and the skill of the handler.
 

Dekka

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So in the case of the dane and the floors. You think it was better in the long run for the dog to be shaking and foaming than to let it acclimatize gently. Do you think that people with phobias should be flooded with calm support too? You know they have tried that.. you should read up what happens to people when that happens.

You keep saying no one size fits all, and I agree whole heartedly. BUT I do cross the line at abusing an animal.
 

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Have you considered the alternative possibility that many people who have loud, reactive dogs are drawn to positive training because they have already tried the other stuff, and it hasn't worked for them or their dogs?
that's certainly how i got there. luce came to me reactive and my response was collar popping and punishing her idiot behavior. i don't believe her reactivity is fear-based, so i don't believe i did her any harm, but it sure didn't help. it wasn't until i made the switch to positive-based training that i saw any significant improvement. i will never go back.

absolutely the handler should be calm in the presence of things that make their dog react, but that's hardly anything new or unique to cesar. any trainer worth anything will tell you that. there was recently some very interesting discussion on the control unleashed yahoo group about acting calm when you're not, and they're about as far away from cesar as one can get and still be on the same planet.
 

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Sure. I also consider the possibility that loud, reactive dogs have loud, reactive owners and the dogs are mirroring the humans they live with. Unless this is addressed, the specific methods chosen have a reduced chance of success, IMO.

Yet another Cesar-ism.
Is this something which you have observed in the positive reinforcement only training classes which you have attended, or are you speaking in the purely hypothetical?

Anecdotally speaking, I know plenty of loud, reactive people with quiet, calm dogs. I know plenty of quiet, calm people with loud, reactive dogs. I know all of two loud people with obnoxious dogs, but their problem isn't that they use positive training or Cesar methods -- it's that they use NO methods and their dogs are completely untrained.

that's certainly how i got there. luce came to me reactive and my response was collar popping and punishing her idiot behavior. i don't believe her reactivity is fear-based, so i don't believe i did her any harm, but it sure didn't help. it wasn't until i made the switch to positive-based training that i saw any significant improvement. i will never go back.
My dog, who was a stray when I found her, had reactivity based on a combination of lack of dog-dog socialization, anxiety, lack of training, and over the top energy and arousal levels when she saw other dogs. Punishing made her more aroused, more anxious, and more reactive. D&C has allowed her to get to the point where she can work calmly in class only feet away from strange dogs who are running back and forth or staring right at her. She still has her butthead moments and her specific triggers where we need to do more work, but positive-based training has allowed her to be a, "happy, healthy, balanced dog who is a safe, stable member of society and welcomed anywhere."

I'm a little irritated (and puzzled) by the suggestion that those people who have dogs with behavioral issues and are using Cesar methods learned from some internet group are being proactive and doing their best to create stable, happy dogs, but those people who have dogs with behavioral issues and are using positive methods have created their dogs' problems, but hey.
 

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I have NOT read this whole thread. I do not have time right now, but I will later. And I WILL read it.

But I saw only the clip posted here of the fight.
So, my comment will be to that only right now.

Oh, I also read the PBRC blog entry dr2little posted.

No, there weren't any breaksticks, but we ALL KNOW that Cesar is beyond using breaksticks. That would admit that dogs can behave/react according to their genetic makeup, and admitting that would be admitting that there are certain things you CANNOT CHANGE about a dog. You can only responsibly manage.

Now, having said that, those dogs appeared to be wearing collars.
WHY the f*ck didn't someone think to twist and choke those d@mn dogs off of eachother???
WTF.
I know, I KNOW! Twisting a collar to "choke a dog off" of another, doesn't seem humane or whatever, but you don't kill the dog. In an emergency situation (and SADLY it got to that point), this is a VERY effective way to get a dog off of another when it has a grip like those dogs did.

I heard "Grab both legs!!!"
If they were trying to advise using the method I *think* they were advising to use, that would have been a HORRIBLE (and at the very least, USELESS) method.
To grab to gripped dogs by their hind legs in an effort for them to let go of each other is not going to work. They got a hold! They're not actively biting at each other. They have a hold. They aren't going to care if you grap their genitals and hang them from them. They already have a hold.

Cesar needs to get a clue and QUIT being in denial.
Dumb@ass.
 

Dekka

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All mine where collars for that reason Becca. Most of my 'real fights' (that clip is horrible but IMO isn't a 'real or serious fight' if those dogs had wanted too it would have been much worse in that amount of time) the JRTs must be choked till near passing out before they will let go. Pulling only seems to increase the damage. Once they are locked on, the hole that is there will still be there when they let go. If you pull however you can cause those holes to become tears... AND if you can pull them a bit I find that they try to re attach making NEW holes.

All in all a horrible situation, and a horrible episode for APBT and bullies in general.
 

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Before you read this Angelique, I want you to know that this doesn't mean that I don't like you or think you're good and kind to your dogs. I know better. I've seen you with them and I sooooo enjoyed your company. But I have difficulty wording things in a passive way when what I have to say isn't particularly passive. I am not very good at passive-aggressive when it's something that strikes me in a strong way. So, this is not targetted to be a personal thing, but more of a concept thing.

I will say this when it comes to beliefs...as someone who firmly believes there are too many dogs in the world, I am pro-adoption and would like to see less puppies brought into the world, purebred or not.

There was a time when I could have been seen on a soapbox, preaching "radical rescue-ism" and shedding an emotional tear everytime a breeder was popping a cork over their latest litter.
It seems the people on this and other forums who get on a soapbox, who "preach" and who are "radical" are the very ones who are doing the most work in rescues, shelters and indeed educating people....getting the word out. A lot of people don't mean to hurt dogs by breeding them wrong or too much. They don't know any better. They haven't heard. If everyone remains silent and only uses the form of example, adopting a dog themselves once in a while, how would that affect the odds of making a significant difference? I've learned a whole lot since reading and learning from those people who "preach." And yes, it does break my heart every time I read about some hapless, pathetic animal, such as these dogs living their lives in shelters because byb dogs are taking up the space in homes that could have been theirs. Yes, it is an emotional thing to me.

Our emotional make-up is directly connected to our rational thinking make-up. This is science. Without emotion, our decisions are missing a terrifically large and valuable part of the whole. There is nothing wrong with shedding an emotional tear. The brain pathways where emotion is centered send important information to the part of the brain where rational thoughts are created. Have you read for the love of a dog? She talks about how the brain works and how important emotion is to our decision making and functioning.

But this did not help educate and it shut down the information exchange and knowledge. I can only do my part by starting with myself. By being an independant thinker in my own personal choices, and by leading through example.
I am not convinced that this is the single factor that did not help educate. There could have been many possibilities of variables which affected the effectiveness. It may have been purely a coincidence too. Taking one factor and attributing that to a cause or conclusion is unparsimonious.

I'm an independent thinker too. I do not blindly follow others, but if I do follow, it is with good reason. I examine lots of different factors and variables and see proof of a hypothesis before coming to a firm conclusion or at the very least, positive demonstration.

It is very self-rewarding to crusade for a cause we believe in. The metaphorical "bite" can be an intoxicating reward in the fight to be right.
The "fight to be right," in my case anyhow, isn't to be right for myself or for selfish reasons, if that is what you're inferring. It is to be right for the sake of dogs. I am a basically moral person and do know the difference between right and wrong. It would not be right for me to sit by passively and not speak out for dogs when they're being abused, just as it wouldn't be right for me to hide my head in the sand if I saw a child being abused, but go along raising my child nicely. As far as making a difference, I think I have, both by speaking out and by example as well. I've seen it with the people and dogs I've been working with over the past while since starting my own business. I've seen it on forums. I've seen it with my neighbors and family. I see and hear feed back in a positive and improving manner with these dogs. And that is what is rewarding to me. It is not for the self centered, self rewarding result you suggest.


I don't know where this comes from. Maybe because humans no longer stay isolated in small clans, fighting to preserve and pass on their genes and have instead organized themselves into belief systems.
There are some people and "clans" that defy Darwin's theory of natural selection...the survival of the fittest.


Whatever the reason one becomes religious about their "cause" of choice, I have made a personal choice to do my best not to take that path. Sometimes I fail as I am only human. But I really do try.
I don't know what this means. But if I understand it correctly, you've chosen not to actively stand up for a cause that you believe strongly in? I see you stand up vehemently for Cesar, for one example. Why wouldn't you stand up for dogs in shelters if its something you believe in?


Our love of dogs (all of us who participate in these debates) makes us passionate. All I can do is continue to discuss, explore, learn, grow, and share, while trying to stick to the sciences over the emotional.
And I don't know exactly what this means either. From past experience, I have seen you mock science, believing not what the scientists and behaviorists have to say about how dogs are, disregarding their studies, experiments, observations and demonstration, invalidating them....rallying for Cesar Milan in their place. Are you insinuating that people, like some of us here, myself included as well as more famous behaviorists... who believe in behaviorism where training/interacting and rehabilitating dogs are unscientific and neurotically emotional? If you were sticking to the sciences over the emotional, as you say, you would explore, learn and grow. But instead, you appear to be sticking to Cesar Milan like glue and he is about the most unscientific as well as unemotional example I could ever come up with. He is not only leaving out enormous amounts of science, but he's leaving out common sense and empathy. That is a very important emotion to have in order to qualify as a normal human as well as to act intelligently and wisely. Empathy. That's a big one. Unless of course,.....he has empathy, but as I suspect, has it totally misplaced on account of not knowing anything remarkable about dogs other than they need leadership and exercise....oh, and a calm owner so they can be abnormally calm and subdued themselves, much easier dogs to deal with, huh. Pffffff. He totally misses the mark on reading body language and what's going on in the emotional lives of dogs....totally off target.

In addition, it is thought that humans and dogs share a convergent evolution. We've been with dogs for a long time. Why would we suddenly, on account of Cesar Milan's ideas and advice need to act totally unnatural (for a human) around dogs? Why would we have to be so uncommonly calm, subdued and unemotional? There's a happy medium. Of course, it doesn't do anyone any good to flail around and act crazy-hyper, especially with a dog who is mal-adjusted. But really now... must we take this to the extreme in general?

Again, it's about personal choice.

Yes indeed.....agreed. :)
 

Doberluv

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I'm not a big fan of what I would call "cold" flooding. Where the dog is left with no social support (from either another calm dog, calm human, or both preferably) to help them through the experience.
When would it happen that a dog receives "warm" flooding, where there is no human or calm dog or support from either in the picture? Flooding is the most unnatural way an animal would voluntarily attempt to acclimate himself to something frightening. Left on his own, with no social support, an animal would never approach something that he thinks could kill him without being extremely cautious and gradual. He'd only go up to the scary thing after coming to the conclusion that it is indeed safe after all. If this were not true, he could not pass on his curious genes because too many false positives would make him injured or dead. And you can't pass on genes if you're dead. If animals went straight up, quickly to things without going through a desensitizing situation, where it was proven to them to be safe from a distance, animals would all be extinct.
 

Doberluv

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And furthermore...(lol) I don't disagree with you in the idea of flooding for something very, very mild, where the dog is marginally and I mean marginally concerned about something. But then, that might not be called flooding, but rather, desensatizing...just not needing as gradual a process as with something more frightening or worrying. For example, if I'm out on a walk in the woods and one of my dogs is worried about some odd looking, burnt out log and starts yapping at it, I tell them how ridiculous they're being and to come along and they do, but with some caution. Then as they get closer, they realize that it is just an old, black log and they look very embarrassed. :rofl1:

Or another example: The vaccum cleaner. Chulita, 8 years old has never gotten super comfortable about the vaccum. For some reason, no amount of exposure one way or the other has made much of a dent. And I have never bothered to give her a Porter-house steak while she's in proximatey to the vaccum, which might help. She isn't terrified in the least, but she would like to avoid it at all costs. I think it might just be that she doesn't like the loud noise. If I'm vaccuming around the couch, she'll either jump off and go elsewhere or she might just get up onto the back of the couch and she looks rather distressed, not highly, but nevertheless.....Do I avoid vaccuming unless she's further away? No, I just go about my business and leave it up to her to either leave entirely or be stressed for a minute. I don't worry and I'm not going to bother trying to make her love the vaccum. Toker, on the other hand plays with me. I say, "I'm going to getchyou!" And she play bows and barks and twirls around like it's the most fun she's had in a long time. They're all different. Jose` doesn't care one way or the other. My old Lab, Bonnie as well as Lyric wouldn't even move if I put the vaccum right up against them. They'd continue resting and I'd have to just go around them and skip that spot where they were lying. How could I ask them to move? LOL.
 
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I didn't see anywhere that Angelique said she chose Cesar and emotion over science, she just said science can not explain everything. Even mosts behavorists that aren't radical and she's not the first person to call some of those behavorists radical, in fact when you get outside some of those tight little circles, lots more behaviorists are actaully inclined to believe they are radical too.

But anyway back to the point, science doesn't explain everything and i've heard from more than one behavorist that when you observe animals in a lab setting, you see how animals react in a lab, observe them in the real world and a whole new set of behaviors and reactions and relationships are observed that defy everything that science knows.

I never saw her say it was wrong to look at science or to use it to explain things. I can see why she's not taking your bait Dekka, I believe she's answered and put forth her thoughts very clearly and any little opening is exploited to maker her look like she's a lover of animal abuse.

It's fine to be passionate about your animals, but I think some need to take a step back for a second.
 

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Let me point out, also, that many of the positive-only trainers are working with extremely high drive, high energy breeds -- border collies, Aussies, flyball-playing terrier mixes. These are all breeds and types which are known to be high energy dogs who spend a great deal of their time in motion and are easily visually stimulated, and they're in extremely intense, highly arousing sports. I don't think this is a coincidence.

In competition, they're expected to wait calmly until released, run the course with both speed and precision, and then immediately hit an off switch and return to a calm state after finishing.

Do all BCs or Aussies or terriers have reactivity issues? Do all positive trainers have reactive dogs? Are all sport dogs reactive? No, certainly not. But it isn't surprising to me that many positive trainers would need to work on teaching calmness and modifying reactive responses to exciting stimuli.

That's not a reflection on training technique; it's a reflection of a particular dog's breed, temperament, personality, and what they're being asked to do, as well as on a particular person's training method and skill.

(edit: Which, now that I think about it, sounds like it is completely the opposite of what I wrote in my previous post. Reactivity is not the handler's fault, except when it is! :rofl1: Pff, you know what I mean, though, right? )
 

Angelique

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I have never talked to people who like cesar who have any real dog knowledge.
Try the International Association of Canine Professionals (IACP). Be sure to read the articles:

http://www.dogpro.org/

For another point of view, from someone who left the "positive only" movement for a more balanced mix of philosophies, check out Roger Hild's site. Roger is one of the founding members of the APDT's sister organization in Canada, The Canadian Association of Professional Pet Dog Trainers. Be sure to read the articles:

http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/

I don't know if anyone frequents the Dogtime site, but I have to give them a big round of applause for rewriting a very nasty article "The Dog Trainer's Trainer" about Cesar while promoting Ian Dunbar. The lie-filled sidebar was also removed. The comments section next to the article contained quite a debate.

Note: The comments are in reverse order, with the most recent appearing first:

http://dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html
 
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Dekka

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I know Roger personally. I took an open Obed class with Kaiden and Ferret with him. He was just fine with me clicking and not doing ear pinches. Strangely enough my dogs worked just as well if not better than the rest of the class that was full of retrievers. (well his dog is a shitzu)

I do know of clients of his that shave the area on the dogs neck to get a better connection with the e collar. The dog I see with this (and the owner has told me herself this is why there is a shaved spot) is very shut down and moves at the speed of snail. I was always surprised Roger (or the owner herself) didn't try some rewarding of the dog vs more punishment when the dog started 'freezing' in place. The dog was a classic example of learned helplessness.

The people that I have previously mention that have all gone Kohler LOVE Roger.. many still take lessons with him. He is NOT balanced (as in even) he is HEAVILY e collar and correction based. Now I DO like Roger personally. I like him a lot! I just don't agree with his methods.

I still find you are skirting some issues. I for one don't care who a trainer is, you could have been my favorite trainer on earth.. but if you ignore a pending dog fight to get ratings I will no longer support you. How many bullies are going to be dumped cause of that episode? Do you know many people are ALREADY siting that episode as to why BSL is a good idea!!?

Do you support BSL? Do you care about dogs in general? (I know some people who care about THEIR dogs.. but not dogs in general) Do you think Cesar made a mistake in that show.. or do YOU think he did the right thing.

AND I will ask again. What about my 'pack' I have one reactive dog and 7 non reactive dogs. How does that fit into your 'reactive people have reactive dogs' philosophy? Do you think past experience on the dog's part is at all a factor? Or genetics? Do you think all dogs are the same essentially but come to mirror their owners?
 

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Before you read this Angelique, I want you to know that this doesn't mean that I don't like you or think you're good and kind to your dogs. I know better. I've seen you with them and I sooooo enjoyed your company. But I have difficulty wording things in a passive way when what I have to say isn't particularly passive. I am not very good at passive-aggressive when it's something that strikes me in a strong way. So, this is not targetted to be a personal thing, but more of a concept thing.
Don't worry Carrie, it's all good. I really enjoyed our get-togethers too! :)
 

Dekka

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I didn't see anywhere that Angelique said she chose Cesar and emotion over science, she just said science can not explain everything. Even mosts behavorists that aren't radical and she's not the first person to call some of those behavorists radical, in fact when you get outside some of those tight little circles, lots more behaviorists are actaully inclined to believe they are radical too.

But anyway back to the point, science doesn't explain everything and i've heard from more than one behavorist that when you observe animals in a lab setting, you see how animals react in a lab, observe them in the real world and a whole new set of behaviors and reactions and relationships are observed that defy everything that science knows.

I never saw her say it was wrong to look at science or to use it to explain things. I can see why she's not taking your bait Dekka, I believe she's answered and put forth her thoughts very clearly and any little opening is exploited to maker her look like she's a lover of animal abuse.

It's fine to be passionate about your animals, but I think some need to take a step back for a second.
No one said Science was every thing. But I think most people mistake what science is. (if you read back yes she did say about emotion....)


Science is questioning. Experimenting. Trying new things. If one thing isnt' working try another. IF one things is working explore it to find why, how and can it be better or clearer. Science is about always looking forward as well as knowing what is behind you.

No you take the people who assume they know it all already. THey have all the answers. They don't look to their subject to see if it could be done better. They don't question.. they blindly believe and follow. They mistake what they see as they find something that works and make up reasons as to why it did. Its the closed mindset that gets me. I have tried all sorts of methods. I hang out at a club that is very pro Kohler, Milan etc. Its not like I havent' tried stuff. I DO know how to use an e collar, and do an ear pinch. But I choose not to as I find my dogs (and any dog I have worked with) work better without.

And I don't find she has answered many of my questions. Why do you assume questions are Baiting? OR do you think she is hiding something? (I personally don't) Since when is asking people to clarify their position on something baiting?
 
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sorry, i got the impression when reading your earlier posts that you didn't really care about her answers only in finding a new angle in which to attack. I don't think she's hiding anything and put her thoughts out there just fine, i seemed to have gotten a totally different understanding from what she was saying than others, maybe it's all perspective.
 

Dekka

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Perhaps I suck at framing my questions :D

I just want to know if someone who supports CM training methods still supports him after an episode like that...

She did answer about flooding. ANd I said I didn't disagree with what she said she liked (I like that stuff too) I dont' agree but she did answer. So still waiting on some others.
 

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I'm hearing this "Extremeist" word being thrown around a lot, and I could be completely wrong but it seems to be thrown towards trainers who are not using more traditonal methods. Is it really extreme to use a method which elicits progress without coercion or physical force. Positive doesn't mean permissive, but it still means positive when teaching behaviour. Why? Because a funny thing happens when you stop correcting a dog for being wrong- he starts trying, he wants to earn that reward, so when he doesn't get it, he actually goes back, uses his mind and offers something new.

As a "balanced" trainer before- using correction and praise and rewards- I had never seen a dog do this before. When I heard of clicker training and decided to try it out, I saw a side of my dog I didn't even know exsisted. A more confident dog who isn't afraid to try things, a dog who physically displays happy behaviours when training, and a dog who is far more clever then I ever gave him credit for as a balanced trainer- because I was more often than not focusing on his flaws.

If that makes me an extremist- fine, but I don't think you should judge a training method until you've observed both the dog and trainer using it. Having been involved with traditional training for awhile- I've seen the dogs, having watched CM- we've seen the dogs- happy is not something I would attribute to them. So before calling some R + trainers extemiest, go watch a clicker training session with a clicker savvy dog and then decide.
 

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