Cropping Ears?

[Doberluv]

I don't know if they win or not, but if the dog doesn't win simply because of it's ears being natural that makes me a bit sad but it's not my breed so who am i to say.

The official description of the Doberman Pinscher is, in part, that the dog is a compact, squarely built dog and athletic, fast and powerful. He was bred to do a particular type of job (protection) and unnecessary apendages flopping and hanging off him were considered detrimental to that job and not to the standard for the breed. It is still that way here.

As far as the comment about made in God's image. Does "God" have floppy ears? LOL. If you consider how humans have manipulated dog breeds for a very long time, how they've bred dogs who have serious health issues due to anatomical manipulation through selective breeding, I don't see how that can be considered to be made in God's image either. There are loads of examples, but one that always comes to my mind first is the English Bulldog and other bracheocephalic breeds. How about the huge dogs that are way bigger than the proto dogs and that wind often up with horrible back and hip problems and very short life spans, not to mention all the other diseases most breeds are so very prone to.

In other words, to pick out one small facet of human interference with "God's image" of himself, with floppy ears, and ignore the vast number of health issues created at the hands of humans seems a little incongruous to me.

 

[MandyPug]

I think you have a great outlook on it though Mandy - you don't like cropping, so you don't own a cropped breed. I think if more people thought along the same lines, the dog world would be a much less dramatic place.

I figure fighting an actual health issue in my own breed is more important and hewing and hawing over something so trivial (not trivial as in doesn't matter, i just think it's less important of a debate than something like trying to weed out health issues and genetic diseases) in a breed that isn't mine. Not to mention as much as i love the look of the Dobe, i couldn't do the crop; therefore they're not a breed i'd own. If you don't like the look of the dog (and it's not a health risk to the breed) get a different breed, end of story.

 

[SizzleDog]

and leaving a natural eared puppy to go home with an owner who has to find a vet to do it themselves can (and very often does) lead to a very messy experience - like poor Wrigley's.

Exactly - and I feel so bad for poor Wrigley and her owners. She's a great dog, and her owners are phenomenal people - VERY good dog owners. They deserved far better than what they got in the ear department. It's really unfortunate... I so wish Wrigley's ears matched her personality, and matched her owners' level of dedication for the cute little dog.

 

[SizzleDog]

If you don't like the look of the dog (and it's not a health risk to the breed) get a different breed, end of story.

This stands to be repeated, good post.

 

[Doberluv]

If I wanted another Dobe and one fell into my lap that happened to have natural ears, I'd still love to have the Dobe. The ears don't change the Doberman's personality or loveability. (is that a word?) LOL. But given a choice, I'd choose a cropped Doberman. They're still beautiful, athletic and wonderful dogs. But they do take a lot of involvement and an experienced owner. They are a lot of dog.

 

[ACooper]

I guess this is another thing that comes back to the 'responsible breeder' issue. For awhile, I nearly got hooked into thinking only breeders who show their dogs are 'responsible breeders' I am not of that mind set any longer.

To me, health and temperament above all else. I don't show, won't ever show, so I really don't care about that. Yes, I want their dogs to be sound structure wise, but what I REALLY want is longevity and temperament.

Do they health test?
Are their dogs stable mentally?
Can they point to some dogs in their line with good longevity?

If the answer to those questions are yes, then I would consider buying from that breeder. It might not be the popular choice around here, but as you said..........a breed riddled with so many health issues, THOSE are the things that matter most to me for peace of mind.

 

[noodlerubyallie]

I guess this is another thing that comes back to the 'responsible breeder' issue. For awhile, I nearly got hooked into thinking only breeders who show their dogs are 'responsible breeders' I am not of that mind set any longer.

To me, health and temperament above all else. I don't show, won't ever show, so I really don't care about that. Yes, I want their dogs to be sound structure wise, but what I REALLY want is longevity and temperament.

Do they health test?
Are their dogs stable mentally?
Can they point to some dogs in their line with good longevity?

If the answer to those questions are yes, then I would consider buying from that breeder. It might not be the popular choice around here, but as you said..........a breed riddled with so many health issues, THOSE are the things that matter most to me for peace of mind.

Yes, but how often do you actually find a breeder that does ALL of the health testing needed, proves their temperaments are Dobe temperaments, and have great longevity...that don't show or work?

I don't believe you'll find a pedigree that contains only WAEs, TTs, WACs, LCs, and BF-Ls, without any BHs, CHs, CDs, IPOs....you know what I mean?

I'm not saying that only show breeders are reputable - I know some that are not. But a good breeder WILL be doing something with their dogs, to prove themselves.

 

[Whisper]

I personally prefer the "look" of natural ears, but I'm not very educated on the subject.

Great posts, Sizzle. I'm learning.

For some reason, I think Kaylee's crop is the most pleasing to my eye I've ever seen.

 

[Laurelin]

I agree, some show crops are over the top - honestly, most Foxfire dobes have ears that are waaaaay too long for my tastes. Kaylee's crop is *almost* too long, but she's an extremely elegant bitch - her ears fit her well. She'd look unbalanced with shorter ears. Ronin and Rocket have shorter, wider ears - both slightly different, but they're BOYS - their crops fit their heads and bodies very well - that's the beauty of having a true expert crop ears.

Yes those are the dobes I was thinking of! Not a fan of that look.

 

[bubbatd]

I just feel sad if I Dobe is picked best of breed because of an ear job . Cosmetics shouldn't enter the picture . They should be judged on form and movement .

 

[Laurelin]

I also agree with what Sizzle said - nearly every breeder that gives you a choice about cropping your dog's ears is most likely a breeder you shouldn't be supporting. A breeder should want every puppy to look it's best when it comes to cropping, and leaving a natural eared puppy to go home with an owner who has to find a vet to do it themselves can (and very often does) lead to a very messy experience - like poor Wrigley's.

I would like to add though this isn't for all cropped and docked breeds. The only cropped breed I'm that interested in is the pyrenean shepherd and it is very easy to find a dog that isn't cropped (and even docked). I have already found a reputable breeder in the US that doesn't crop or dock any of their dogs. You see them in the show ring (and winning) either way too. Then again pyr sheps are not near as political as dobes.

 

[noodlerubyallie]

I just feel sad if I Dobe is picked best of breed because of an ear job . Cosmetics shouldn't enter the picture . They should be judged on form and movement .

Example:

You have two dogs - both are fabulous movers and meet the standard very closely. They are equal in their faults, with one difference-one is cropped, the other is natural.

AKC.org -

Head
Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge in both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually toward the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Eyes almond shaped, moderately deep set, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris, of uniform color, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs; in reds, blues, and fawns the color of the iris blends with that of the markings, the darkest shade being preferable in every case. Ears normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, is on a level with the top of the skull.

Faults
The foregoing description is that of the ideal Doberman Pinscher. Any deviation from the above described dog must be penalized to the extent of the deviation.

Based on our standard, the judge would award the cropped dog breed - because it best conforms to the written standard.

Standards=written for a reason.

We won't go into the "cosmetic" argument again.

 

[Laurelin]

Example:

You have two dogs - both are fabulous movers and meet the standard very closely. They are equal in their faults, with one difference-one is cropped, the other is natural.

But really this is only a theoretical situation. We have it written in our standards similarly about markings. All else equal certain markings are preferred. But in real life I've never seen two dogs that were equal in all aspects except markings. So the standard often gets misinterpreted as 'if you don't have a blaze, you are faulted'.

Saying 'all things equal' in a hypothetical scenario is one thing but it often plays out very differently in real life.

 

[bubbatd]

Understand , but I personally feel the ears ( except for head placement ) should be ignored if surgically enhanced .

 

[noodlerubyallie]

But really this is only a theoretical situation. We have it written in our standards similarly about markings. All else equal certain markings are preferred. But in real life I've never seen two dogs that were equal in all aspects except markings. So the standard often gets misinterpreted as 'if you don't have a blaze, you are faulted'.

Saying 'all things equal' in a hypothetical scenario is one thing but it often plays out very differently in real life.

That's why it was a very basic hypothetical, meant to make a quick point.

In reality, both dogs move well. In form, one dog has a straight front and sickle hocks. The other has a very coarse head and pigeon front. The dog with the straight front is black, 12 months old, and has a professional handler that is friends with the judge from way back. The coarse dog is fawn, with a woman novice handler wearing a short skirt and low cut blouse, and is (the dog) 28 months old.

The judge makes them go around the ring again, and the dogs are stacked. Who does the judge give breed to?...

.....the junior handler with acne, a spindly bitch in season with a bad attitude and a bad rear.

 

[JennSLK]

If you do crop after you get the dog. PLEASE talk to experianced dobe people tp find a vet.

Here is Jazz's crop

 

[Zoom]

Why is it so bad to give the new ownder the option? If all responsible breeders cropped them, what happens to the people who rather have natrual ears? Not arguing, just curious.

The one my brother is getting his from not only gave him the option but asked him if he wanted the show-length (realy long, as it was pictured here), medium, or short.

Because a good breeder is evaluating the pups every day until the day they go home. And crops should be done about 5 weeks old, with placements not taking place until 8 weeks. So there are three weeks worth of growing, changing and evaluating going on. If a breeder started taking "made to orders" on cropping and ended up giving a pet crop to the dog that ended up being pick of the litter...that's not going to go over too well.

I don't think your brother's breeder is going to meet the criteria for a very good breeder. My guess is it's a BYB with a good heart and good intentions but little else.

 

[ACooper]

Because a good breeder is evaluating the pups every day until the day they go home. And crops should be done about 5 weeks old, with placements not taking place until 8 weeks. So there are three weeks worth of growing, changing and evaluating going on. If a breeder started taking "made to orders" on cropping and ended up giving a pet crop to the dog that ended up being pick of the litter...that's not going to go over too well.

I don't think your brother's breeder is going to meet the criteria for a very good breeder. My guess is it's a BYB with a good heart and good intentions but little else.

Actually no, doberman pups are normally cropped between 7-10 weeks. 5 weeks sounds awfully young to crop IMO, .........they haven't even started shots or anything yet by that age. And if they are 'placed' by 8 weeks (which sounds young to me as well) then what is all this 'made to order' stuff you are speaking of? If the pups are indeed ready to be placed by 8 weeks.............well then the breeder could just wait until THEN to crop them, and take the extra 10 days or so of healing time before they went 'home' now couldn't they?

From everything I've read, even 12 weeks isn't considered 'too late' to crop......though much older than that and you run more risks of the ears not standing, or so I'm told. Orson was 14 weeks when he was cropped.........he wasn't from a good breeder (not in ANYONE'S book) AND he had to hold off on surgery due to him being ill and weak, but his still stand.


Here is the DPCA website (if it hasn't been listed yet) DPCA | Home

The DPCA public education site: PEC Welcome

And the DPCA public education link to ears: Ears

 

[milos_mommy]

I don't think it's "traumatic" but I don't believe in putting a dog (or child) through any unnecessary medical procedures with no real benefits (which of course is up to the owner to decide if there are any).

i would crop if: the dog was to be a show dog, working dog, or to be bred. if i were to do schutzhund or really any kind of work with a dog, ie. a farm dog, etc. i would crop it
i would not crop if: the dog was to be solely a pet, living in a house, and not going into any dangerous situations or not being bred/purchased to be an example of what the breed was originally intended to do

 

[mi_bella]

Actually no, doberman pups are normally cropped between 7-10 weeks. 5 weeks sounds awfully young to crop IMO, .........they haven't even started shots or anything yet by that age. And if they are 'placed' by 8 weeks (which sounds young to me as well) then what is all this 'made to order' stuff you are speaking of? If the pups are indeed ready to be placed by 8 weeks.............well then the breeder could just wait until THEN to crop them, and take the extra 10 days or so of healing time before they went 'home' now couldn't they?

From everything I've read, even 12 weeks isn't considered 'too late' to crop......though much older than that and you run more risks of the ears not standing, or so I'm told. Orson was 14 weeks when he was cropped.........he wasn't from a good breeder (not in ANYONE'S book) AND he had to hold off on surgery due to him being ill and weak, but his still stand.

The guy told my brother that it had to be done between 6 to 12 weeks. He's (the puppy) coming home at the age of 12 weeks. I really have no idea if he's a good one or not. To me, all of that is too complicated. That's why I've never bought a dog. Bella, I adopted. Maybe when I feel a little more secure about my education on dogs, I'll go and buy a pure breed from a good breeder.

But this is alot of information and it's gotten me thinking alot. I don't know what I stand on it but it's def. interesting.