Coolies

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by avaloncoolies, Jan 4, 2013.

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  1. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I have seen this in both ASTs and GSDs. Judge's first and only litter was a complete outcross. That litter was VERY consistent across the board. Very easy to identify them in my opinion. What's even more interesting is that his litter was very consistent and you can look at the current litter of puppies from a 1/2 brother of his and they look like the litter Judge produced. You can tell the puppies were related in some way.

    Red girl-Judge's litter
    [​IMG]

    Sookie-from his 1/2 brother
    [​IMG]

    Steve-from Judge's full brother
    [​IMG]

    MJ-Judge's litter
    [​IMG]

    Stirling-from his 1/2 brother
    [​IMG]

    To me, these puppies show consistency but yet variance, despite the variation in pedigrees. They to me look very related but different. Plus, these pictures are from different ages. Some at 9 weeks, others closer to 16 weeks.
     
  2. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    BUT, in the breeds mentioned....They are all most definitely identifiable as GSDs,Aussies etc. Whereas, honestly, I could go to my local pound and find a dog that has the same structure and look as some of the Coolies posted.

    I stand strong that they are as inconsistent as Doodles and the likes. Plus, without a breed standard, what are the breeders breeding towards? That leaves too much variance in the breed.
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I'm slightly confused how people choose their breeders if they prefer dogs without consistency. That said, I give. I don't really have enough engaged to challenge further. To each their own, I prefer to know what I'm getting in a litter of pups such as moderately predictable structure, consistent temperaments, relatively arched drives, and generalized looks but not everyone prefers not to buy the same. If I every plan to play the spice of variety game I'll buy a mystery from a shelter.

    I see more similarity between Coolies/Koolies after more looking but I'm still understanding it is to be a type more than a breed by what is being shared when said each breeder holds their own "style" of coolie.

    It's interesting none the less, though, and I appreciate those who've tried to discuss it both on and off Chaz without brushing it off as unimportant.
     
  4. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    Do you think you could find a dog with the same structure and look, who also has the ability to work (either performance or cattle work) as a Coolie does? And if so, do you think that's going to be as guaranteed as getting a Coolie from a breeder of working dogs OR as easy to find as a breeder dog?

    I could go to the pound and find a dog that has the exact same structure and look as field labs, but that doesn't mean a) the dog is all, most, or even at all labrador, or b) the dog is going to be capable of being a working hunting companion. Same goes for GSDs/Aussies or BCs/most Northern Breeds.
     
  5. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    Dog sledders will argue that the Alaskan Husky is not a breed, but a type. Some of the variation in Coolies seems to be on the same level, but we're now calling it a breed to dissuade outcrossing while the mushers want to keep outcrossing (to other breeds).
    From the first post.

    How can this dog exist outside of Australia? If the only thing making a Coolie a Coolie is the way it works, which appears peculiar to Aus, can a Coolie be a Coolie outside of Aus?

    You say Coolies must work in large spaces, but then the bulk of what you mentioned is working in stock yards. I was under the impression that the ACD is more of the pusher for working big areas. How exactly are they functionally different from the ACD or even the BC/ACD mixes that seem really, really common in the American West?
     
  6. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I don't think I see as much difference as you do in those dogs. I see the basics (look-wise) the same. More variety than you'd see in a purely show bred litter, for sure. I don't think it is near the same as buying from a shelter. If we're seeing pup 1 looking like a border collie, pup 2 looking like a beagle, 3 looking like a chihuahua, etc then I would have a problem.
     
  7. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    Yes, I do feel I could. I live in farm land, tons of herder crosses that look like Coolies and from what I can tell work like them. Of course it wouldn't be as guaranteed. My point is that there is no standard and after a ton of thinking adn reading, it is of my opinion that Coolie is NOT a breed but a type due to not having a standard. Too much inconsistency in the breed to breed true as a breed should.

    BUT...those breeds have standards, you can judge a dog by. Coolies have no standard. They also don't produce consistently across the board. I'd love to know the breeds that went into making this "breed". They seem like fun dogs, but someone needs to step up and make it a breed or not.
     
  8. Airn

    Airn New Member

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    Not to mention that the Kelpie is also famous for running on the backs of sheep. I'm not a Kelpie expert. Personally, I think my dog looks like a herding mix. And that's probably what she is. Just so happens she looks the most like a Kelpie and it happens to be a 'breed'.

    I think it's great that Avalon breeds dogs that are working dogs. I think it really just comes to a matter of preference.

    I prefer breeds that are simple. I want to know what I'm getting myself into. It's not JUST about looks, but that's how most people determine what breed a dog is. The look of it. For people who don't research every breeder of a breed, this makes sense.

    Some people breed for work, others are not focused on the working aspect of the dog. I don't think this is really a problem.

    What are the main differences between a C/Koolie and a Kelpie or other Aus. herding breeds? There are too many similarities in these herding breeds. It's so confusing.
     
  9. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Good post, great example.
     
  10. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    "MUST" was never used when mentioning big arid spaces...coolies can do either or, and ALL...versatility is a breed trait, they can do anything you ask them to do...standars are in each registry, code of ethics, meetings, minute records, explusion terms and legal matters...in each club. Again, variety within the breed YES, consistency amongst breeders YES, difference between Coolie and Koolie YES (obvious to even some here already), breed standard to adhere to YES (ex: straight across the board in all clubs in breed standard: brindle is not a accepted color...just one example from text refrence)
     
  11. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Did you see my question about German coolies v Australian Koolies?
     
  12. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I think Koolies are more of a type than a breed, and I completely understand what Adrianne is saying, but I can't really articulate the point. But I get it.

    But, on the other hand, if most people who know what a Koolie is can look at a short coated BC with prick ears that's merle and know it's a BC and not a Koolie, or an ES that's the same and know it's not a BC, but an ES and definitely not a Koolie, how can that not be a breed?

    There's something similar overall in the Koolie's structure that makes it look like a Koolie to me. Even with the PyrSheps, because I don't KNOW that breed, I can't tell they were all PyrSheps, but someone who DOES; CAN.

    Border Collies come in the same amount of variety as Koolies. Short coat, smooth coat, merle, bi, tri, red, dilute, ect, I can find a 20 pound BC and a 60 pounder and they're both STILL Border Collies, so are we arguing that they're a landrace now too? That the only difference is that Border Collies have a very distinct style of working that's been exaggerated?

    Also, I'm really really really have terrible dejavu over this post, and thread. I feel like we've discussed this exact topic before...
     
  13. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Border Collies have only very recently in their history had a written breed standard. And I'd say that breed standard is totally dismissed by the majority of breeders in the breed. They have historically been defined by their herding style. And as I think was mentioned, they have an open registry that allows dogs of unregistered or unknown or technically any breed to registered as a BC...if they can herd like a BC.

    Perhaps Koolies...or Coolies undeniably all herd like K/Coolies?

    FWIW I can spot a Doodle from a block away LOL They can vary in size and coat type but they all look like Doodles. I see Doodles all the time at work and I never wonder if they are or aren't Doodles. Now it's a bit harder to tell if they are Lab x Poodle or Golden x Poodle and if they are Doodle x Doodle, it gets trickier. But IME the first generation crosses all look like Doodles. And the Doodles bred back to Poodle offspring are pretty recognizable and a lot more consistent.


    My Belgians are pretty consistent, although vary as individuals do. I know Belgians well enough that I can know where certain traits come from and know the look of certain dog's kids/grandkids. It takes time to be that familiar with a breed. Most people see my multiple Black Dogs and say "I don't know how you can tell them apart, they look identical!".

    There's consistency in PyrSheps but their looks vary a lot. You really don't necessarily know what you'll get looks wise. Savvy was supposed to be SF but he's a RF demi. They all play the same though, they all are obsessed with their people and they all are interested in leaping, climbing, running fast and being crazy (or at least, they all should be). I get a kick out of watching Silvia Trkman's videos because her PyrSheps act like Savvy who acts like the PyrSheps I see around. Their tolerance of strangers varies the most I guess and their reaction to strange stuff. I suspect they would all work sheep in a similar manner but I don't have enough experience to say.

    I do understand what you are saying about Koolies and breeds and the definition of breed. Perhaps Koolies are more of a landrace?

    "Dog landraces and the selectively-bred, formalized dog breeds derived from them vary greatly, depending on their origins and purpose. All dog types are essentially derived from the gray wolf. The process of how dogs were domesticated is best illustrated by the experiments undertaken by Dmitri Belyaev in the old Soviet Union with the silver fox, which eventually created the domesticated silver fox.[9] or by the genome-wide association studies of Elaine Ostrander[10] at the NIH. The Border Collie breed is derived from a same-named landrace that is used as a herding dog and varies in appearance: ears pricked upright to nearly dropped, varied fullnesses of coat, and so on. However, they are recognised as Border Collies by their general appearance and most of all by their unique manner of herding sheep. In contrast to the landrace, in the Border Collie breed show-quality individuals very closely match a "breed standard" appearance but might not be particularly good at herding sheep and might not have a coat suitable for outdoor life. Similarly, the ancient landrace of the Middle East that led to the Saluki breed excels in running down game across open tracts of hot desert, but show-quality individuals of the breed might not be able to chase and catch hares in the desert. The now extinct St. John's water dog landrace was native to the island of Newfoundland. It was the foundational breed for a number of purpose-bred dogs, such as the Labrador Retriever, and Chesapeake Bay Retriever, as well as the Newfoundland. Another example of a comparatively recent North American landrace that developed from European dogs is the Carolina Dog (also called Yellow Dog, and which has also been established now as a formal breed). The mountain dog is more of a complex of similar and not always related breeds and landraces, and is the common working dog type of mountain environs of central Eurasia. An Old World canine landrace is the Armenian Gampr dog."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landrace
     
  14. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I myself am only experienced with handling stock with coolies, i have never worked another breed. It is hard for me to give comparisons in that regards. I can only tell you how mine work...and how versatile they are for any job. Large spaces, small confined shutes, sorting, driving, they work calm and collected no intensity, very cool no rush at all, like i said before i work my boy and girl with more eye and crawl for trial...independent thinkiers and my all time favorite is Gunnah and Akili and our 15 acre 3/4 fenced hgrazing pasture...no fence on road ditch side of rectangle (1000ft) and the two work the perimeter on their own to maintain sheep in pasture...

    I can then take Akili with me to a aggressive dog rehab session for 2 hours no problem...these guys can just mold to the task at hand no matter what it is...
    And then the next day i might want to lay in bed and watch some marathon on Discovery channel or something and they will chill with me no problem
     
  15. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    NO i am sorry i did not see the question German Coolie vs Aus.Koolie....
     
  16. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    In brief: There was a split in the community about a decade ago or so...over name, breeding practices, breeding stock provenance, politics of all sorts (we came later into the breed ..about 5 years later)
    Two to three different fractions came of it...each pursuin their own goals, lines and obviously little to no breeding outside of "fellow" club members...now genetically it only takes 5 to 7 generations to "modify traits" or "set" them for that matter...so there is a explanation in the differences in that departement, what started as a political conflict in a breed has over the years in the different breeding lines created a physical difference yes...obvious but still mostly reflecting the different regions, and stock work they are needed for...but the split did divide the blood lines as well
     
  17. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    This might be a "new breed" overseas but it is well established in Aus. There are so many more lines then what you have experienced here. So many....allowing healthy breedings in each fraction...although some do still choose to stay tight...and some still choose to outcross ...some are members of clubs and some are not...I am a member of IGCS&R, thats my preference...those that are not members do have more liberty to do as they please with no standard to adhere to
     
  18. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    or code of ethics for that matter
     
  19. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    And "landrace"breed is "picking apart" I think but as a compromise I could maybe think of that term for a bit....I would want to know what makes the difference then between a Landrace and a full blown breed?

    Time? (50 years, 100 years, 150 years...), the choice of keeping it "landlocked" (exclusif to siberia, or some region of some sort...to which i would argue Australia being a isolated continent would make it hard for it to be any other way..) dogs being bred only from a small gene pool?....
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Could you give a quick breakdown of which registry promotes which dogs? What countries they're in, etc? I am still very confused by the k/c thing.
     
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