Coolies

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by avaloncoolies, Jan 4, 2013.

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  1. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    So to answer the ONE person who played the little game (thanks BTW) The pup that does not share a sire with the other two is actually the pup in the middle!! :)
     
  2. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I don't really get what you're trying to ascertain.... I really don't. You approach any breeder because you know what you're getting, what that is is open to interpretation.


    You may as well open a phone book and jab a pin in it if you don't. Personally I like the fact you can do that, and I can't see there ever being a time you wouldn't be able to.
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Was that really the only difference amongst littermates that you were trying to emphasize when rationalizing the question of consistency in the K/Coolie breed? Their ear set?
     
  4. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    **** I could've sworn middle and righty were related! LOL They look so much alike!
     
  5. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    The point was when I questioned the variance in an entire breed several came forward and said look at the variance in one litter, so while I accepted my lack of knowledge in Coolies I prompted an expansion of why is it a good or bad thing to not have consistency of structure (and looks/traits) within a litter? Haven't we been taught that breeders should be producing a consistent outcome of their goal? If that is incorrect then why bother with purebred at all?

    I guess I was surprised to see "look at this variety in this litter" posed as a good thing, maybe I misunderstood.

    Eta, I apologize for the OT but in my defensive I did ask one on topic question of the OP that is still open.
     
  6. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    No....?

    I'm really honestly getting confused as to what you're asking for.

    Aussies vary a lot looks-wise. Many herding breeds vary a lot looks-wise. That was the point I was making. Not anything else or more.

    I am not saying it's good/bad/whatever. Just saying that it is. So koolies varying a lot looks-wise does not surprise me.
     
  7. Airn

    Airn New Member

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    I *think* I understand what you're saying, Adrianne. And if I do understand, then I agree with you.

    (This is all based off of my personal choices, nothing is related to health or breed standard, since I'm a 'casual' dog owner.)

    It's not that I don't mind breeds to vary. It's nice to have differences. But if I want breed A then I want to know ideal weights, common colors, patterns, traits, ect. I don't want to be looking for a breed and see one that is a long coated merle with floppy ears that weighs 50 lbs from one breeder and then a short coated solid with pricked ears that weighs 30 lbs. How are people supposed to know anything about the breed if it's all over the place?

    It's not a 'right' or 'wrong' thing, no, but to me it just makes sense to want your breed to have consistency. If the breed varies so much, why isn't it two breeds? I don't really know what 'makes' a dog breed a breed, but I'm seeing some pretty big differences in this C/Koolie thing. (And other breeds, but that's off topic.)

    If you want that many variations, go to your local shelter. They have some GREAT dogs that can come in long coats, short coats, brindle, solid, black, white, 15 lbs, 60 lbs, whatever you want!
     
  8. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    So this is more about this litter than breeds?

    Personally if I was buying a working bred gsp differences between siblings wouldn't interest me nearly as much as can it do the job I want it to. So no, I wouldn't care if ones ears were longer, but yes I do want them to do the job. Whether ALL of them could do the job isn't really my concern at that time is it?
     
  9. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I'd love to see stacked pictures of the K/Coolies and good head shots. It's not always easy to tell much from shots of dogs sitting and laying around or in action.

    I think the Aussies you posted are all pretty similar in type. There will be minor differences even in littermates in this like size, substance, ear set, etc but the breeder you went to definitely seems to produce pretty consistent type.

    Well if I was looking for that sort of consistency across the board, I'd probably not have gotten a PyrShep ;) Variety sort of defines the breed. I remember the year they were going to be accepted into AKC being at a judges education with Belgians and the PyrSheps being across from us. Most breeds take 6-8 representatives of the breed for the judges to be to judge and for the judges to be able to see differences in type within the breed. There must've been at least 20 PyrSheps there, in order to give the judges a good feel of how varied the looks can be in the breed.

    With PyrSheps, there are three varieties in coat: Rough-Faced with a long coat, Smooth-Faced and Rough-faced with a demi-long coat. The SF coats can range from fairly short with feathering to Aussie type coats. Colors include fawn which ranges from copper to light wheat with or without a black mask, fawn merle, brindle, brindle merle, gray from very dark to very light, black, blue merle with or without some white markings. Copper points seem to be a possibility in the breed but I've never seen one in person, only in pictures. Tails can be docked, natural long or natural bob and ears may be cropped or not. Uncropped ears for show ideally would be rose ears or semi-prick but some have flopped ears like how show Aussie ears are glued to look, mismatched ears or prick ears. Savvy has rose ears mostly but one is a bit higher than the other and sometimes stands all the way up. Very cute :)

    There is a large size range accepted in the standard and an even larger one in reality. The standard allows for 15"-18" basically and then it allows for Smooth faced males to be even taller - up to 21 1/2". Which is about the size of Whimsy. So Sheltie sized to small Belgian sized. The tallest one I've seen is I think 22". Weight seems to be anywhere from about 12 lbs to 35lbs.

    So here is the question...would anyone without knowing actually identify all of these dogs as being the same AKC recognized breed?

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  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Aleron, I specified, or maybe only Fran and Shai saw it, that I accept variance in the breed. However I was thrown by using variance in a single litter as "okay".

    If I go for a litter I want to know what I'll be eating. I'm confused by anyone who does not.
     
  11. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I think we found the problem, I intend to eat puppies.

    Oh and those Pyr all share the same muppety Punky Brewster look, IMO.
     
  12. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Variety is the spice of life? Fits what you want, maybe not what others care for? This is why we are all lucky we can pick and choose breeders who fit our needs ;)
     
  13. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    This.

    I also agree that I don't see the Coolies I've seen pics of as being more different than the wide variety you see in border collies.

    If you look at labs there is a LOT of variety. Dogs ranging in size from 50-something lbs to 100lbs ( and not always just due to fat), very short double coats to longers ones with waving, very narrow, weedy, almost houndish build to overly blocky and sticky build-and these are dogs with a set standard. Dogs that are suited to no more than casual water retrieves to retrieving machines and now the addition of the controversial pointing labs.

    I guess my question would be that as long as the dogs are not suffering somehow and the coolie people are fine with some variety in the breed, even happy with it, what is the issue?
     
  14. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    I'm not sure that there really is a huge inconsistency of type in a Koolie litter. I mean, look at Didgie and Zinga. (It's those cursed Toolalla dogs again though :p)
     
  15. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    LOL So it's been determined. The key to PyrShep type is they must have a Muppet-y essence. Hard to describe but impossible to miss when present :)

    The thing with PyrSheps is...if you made them all the same size, gave them all consistent ears and tails and gave them slick, tan coats...they all are fairly similar structure/build wise and have similar expression. Not identical but similar. When you see them together at shows though, I don't think any other breed can have an entry where pretty much none of the dogs look the same. There is variance in type in all breed but the variety in looks in PyrSheps really throws people. Oh and I forgot...they can have double rear dews, single rear dews or no rear dews. OMG that makes Briard people crazy because if they should have them, they should have them and be disqualified it not! I have been lectured by more Briard people at dog shows over how PyrSheps look or don't look or what their standard should or shouldn't allow. Just random Briard people feel the need to come up and tell me "you know this breed needs more consistency, I don't know what the breeders involved are thinking but all of these dogs just can't be correct!". I really hope the breed always keeps their variety and doesn't fall to the pressure of the dog show purists to "have a better defined standard". They are as a breed, very inbred which makes the fact there is so much variety sort of interesting. They're basically an ancient landrace and the dogs today, still look like historical pictures of PyrSheps in the Pyrenees mountains. There's probably more SFs now though because some people breed for SFs, when historically they just sort of happened.
     
  16. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    Honestly, I don't see how we can compare any dog with a written standard to Coolies. Coolies don't have a written standard and are honestly IMHO as inconsistent as Goldendoodles, Labradoodles,Schnoodles and Cockapoos.
     
  17. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    As for litter consistency. If you have breeders doing tight breedings, that tends to give much more consistency within a litter/line. Outcrossing tends to allow for greater variance in litters. A lot of successful breeders use tight breedings or even inbreeding with occasional outcrosses which will be bred back into the original line.

    Although Roust's grandparents are line bred but he's from very much an outcross breeding and that litter is extremely consistent. So much so that I was able to identify Blossom as his sister immediately with just seeing her in a Petfinder link on FB.
     
  18. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Having consistency I think is what a breeder strives for within their lines, and I beleive each breeder has that within their program...

    I also believe that having diversity within a breed is beneficial, in sorts not to breed yourself into a corner. One of the reason I chose to have dogs from 3 different kennels for my breeding program...with only one line running thru your dogs I would say one is not really starting anything as to a breeding program...simply continuing on with someone elses breeding program...to truely say "we have our own line of fill in the blank" there should be some kind of "forging" something new.

    I breed for dogs between 35lbs and 40lbs, medium coat (as i do live in -30c 6 months out of the year), solids are more then welcome and I would say embraced, solids are ALWAYS involved in our breedings which does lead to more solids in my lines (which i think is a huge factor in people here not "recognizing" the coolie :as merles have been the choice coolie to "show off" on this forum), I want coolies that can jump, run for days, I like a finer head with pricked ears but love my semi pricked just as much...i like my dogs to mature around 18inches to 20inches, and most of all be smart, sharp and have a excellent emotional control and off switch...cuddle bugs are my thing...we wanted to create a dog that can work all day in your sport of choice but that will want to snuggle up and watch a movie with you if that strikes your fancy...

    As pointed out before, breeding for LOOKS and looks alone (for whatever reason: consistency in the breed, producing more merles because they have better resale, wanting pricked eared dogs only etc...) will only do one thing: be detrimental to any breed, not just the coolie....it only leads to unethical practices IMO (merle to merle, culling pups, father/daughter breedings, etc...)

    I can only speak for coolies as I have not been involved in breeding or working any other breed on stock. As a dog trainer for a career I can say that anyone getting a Avalon coolie knows exactly what they are getting, very consistent...just today someone from Aus joined the German Coolie group on facebook and posted a pic of their little boy and I knew exactly which kennel he came from, right away...ear set, shape, fine head, straight back, white feet....even in his slight tilt of the head for the picture...just screamed at me...trained coolie eye that all. Because the dogs posted about are absolutly beautiful but my eye is not trained in them so i am not seeing what some of you are seeing...
     
  19. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    And refering back to the beginning of the thread if you find the web sited for the different coolie/koolie/working koolie association you will they have their own "breed standard" and "code of ethics" with links to the different kennels assiciated with them
     
  20. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    So so so many dog breeds have HUGE variances in lines and even litters, and I'm not talking show/field/working bred - with labs...I've never known anyone to hunt with a 100 lb labrador with a head like a brick and a really really short coat - but look at a breed like German Shepherds. There are enormous inconsistencies in dogs that are working, either in bite sport, as police dogs, etc...not just in pet/show bred dogs and different nationalities. And Aussies...working aussies come in a wide range of size/build/coat type/etc. Same thing with beagles...the list goes on and on.
     
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