Coolies

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by avaloncoolies, Jan 4, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Upendi&Mina

    Upendi&Mina Mainstreme Elitist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,596
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Three dogs + one evil rabbit
    Location:
    Wonderland
    I love love love that picture because it shows just how much aussies can vary even within a litter.

    ETA: Cara gets BC a lot online if the picture does not include her tail or rather lack there of, I have a feeling it has to do with her smaller build.
     
  2. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    2,138
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Guinea pigs, rabbits, rats, cats, dogs, oh my!
    Location:
    MA, USA
    Woah, that's all the same litter? That's really interesting.
     
  3. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    this!
     
  4. AllieMackie

    AllieMackie Wookie Collie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,601
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Professional Illustrator
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    Home Page:
    The talk of structure is pretty fascinating to me. It's true that structure and appearance varies widely within MANY herding breeds. I wanted to share a few photos from Finn's breeder (that many of you have seen before I'm sure). A number of these dogs are line-bred to a degree and still their structures are very different. The variations can be strong even when you're just dealing with tri-coloured working bred BCs within the same lines.

    You saw Finn's sire Coal in Laur's post. Stocky, strong, tall, short-coated... aside from the tri you'd never know he and Finn were related:
    [​IMG]

    Finn's grandsire Hawk, father of Coal (left) and half-brother Frost (out of Rio, unrelated to Coal's lines) are both similar in structure and appearance. Both fluffy, stocky and strong.
    [​IMG]

    And then add in small, waify Rio in front, Finn's dam (and clearly who he primarily takes after) and short-coated Beauty behind her, Coal's litter sister, who if I had to compare is very similar in shape and looks to Blaze (except for the tri, obviously):
    [​IMG]

    And adult Finn, for reference. My observations are that he's way fluffier than either of his parents and maintains the stockiness of his grandsire and father, but has the expression and facial structure of his dam. Prick ears are from grand-dam. Anyways, my point is even HE looks entirely different from his lineage.
    [​IMG]

    Again, that's all in essentially a single line of tri-colour border collies. TO me, rather fascinating. I wish I had some photos of Finn's grand dam and more of the offspring.

    (I also want to note that his breeder doesn't intentionally breed only tris, her chosen dogs have all been due to working ability and health tests, but coincidentally they are tris!)
     
  5. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    My question further extends to those with such variety in their breeders litters, do you not seek a breeder who can produce a consistent look and temperament?

    By looks I mean structure (chest, back, feet), coat type (wire, tight, double), and traits (hound ears, lack of pigment, scissor bite).
     
  6. Upendi&Mina

    Upendi&Mina Mainstreme Elitist

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,596
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Three dogs + one evil rabbit
    Location:
    Wonderland
    The aussie litter is out of a HOF kennel known for producing outstanding dogs. The variety in aussies is one of the things I love about them. :dunno:
     
  7. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Lack of consistency in, per say, doodles is often used as a con or argument against their validity. "Inability to produce a constant outcome." So, color me.. confused?
     
  8. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    GSDs are a breed that has a ton of variety. BUT, it is almost always blantantly obvious what breed they are and even what lines they come from, West German Showlines, American Showlines, DDR Working lines, Czech working lines or West German Working lines.

    If GSD breeders were producing the kind of inconsistency in structure that I am a seeing in Coolies, I'd be seriously concerned about the workability. I see a lot of Coolie's with extremely high rears which in my experience leads to front end problems as well as causing back problems from the high rear.

    Honestly, it sounds like the game bred APBT breeders regarding health testing, no need for it, they work so they can't have it. I knew a Rottie that had the worst set of hips ever, that dog worked hard till it was 10 years old, dog was a hobby sport dog and companion, never health tested until they noticed short steps in the rear. Drive in dogs can overpower pain IMHO.
     
  9. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    I always wish we had xrays of these dogs (this type of example) at a young age. I have a friend who's Dogo was sired by a dog who at 12 had horrific hip issues, until then he'd been hunting hogs and working security on the ranch, never showing a sign. I brought this up once as an example of and the rebuttle was given, but the dog is 12... who's to say the hips didn't just break down after that hard of work for that long? It's an interesting point.
     
  10. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Prince George BC Canada
    As a coolie owner for going on 8 years now, breeder for 4 1/2years, I have spent hours upon hours looking at different kennels, lines, pics from the 1800's of the breed involved in producing the breed, pics from all different regions of Aus. Differences within the breed YES (size, head shape, weight, build, height, ear set etc...) but I find that amongst breeders the consistency is there...I can by eye, pick out a Toolalla dog, a Tjukurpa dog, a Yatahae dog, a Hunterslea, a Coolibah and Borahview of course...no problem, very much consistency in litters produced within the different breeding programs.
    My self, and others including Sara and Linds I am sure (check back the pots with Tamlyn, Lindsey picked out he was Avalon in 2sec.) can recognize a dog bred by these different breeders...simply because we look at them all the time, just like you do with your Mals, Aussies, Paps, and more...
     
  11. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,568
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    They are interesting cases. My TD(he owned the Rottie in question) said that looking back, there was signs of it in the way the dog moved but they were small signs.

    Personally, I believe that if a dog is going to have bad hips, they are going to regardless of the care. I do believe in environmental HD to a point. But I have a mentor/breeder/friend that has an extremely nice line of dogs. Her dog's hips consistently produce hips that are better or equal to them. Comparatively, her incidents of HD are uncommon. Her dogs work hard. They run, they jump and are allowed to be dogs, she feeds good foods and a Glucosamine/Choindroitin/MSM supplement but that's it. So, I have a hard time swallowing the environemental HD thing completely. I think it can happen but it is few and far between IMHO. But she is a breeder that has sought out good strong lines that produce good strong hips. IDK.

    ETA- Her dogs also produce consistent type and conformation.
     
  12. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Prince George BC Canada
    [​IMG]

    So trying to stay on topic here, well we were off topic from my initial coolie intro thread but now we are definalty going way OT...so I would like to propose a little game:

    Like I said I beleive Coolies have a consistency within the different breeding programs (which reflect differences in purpose of work, needs, geographical location in aus., breeder preferences etc...) so here is a collage of 3 avalon coolies produced by moi (me in french)...3 Dams / 2 Sires, 3 different litters over 2 1/2 years...who can pick out the coolie that does not share a sire with the other 2?
     
  13. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    I'm gonna guess the little guy on the left!!
     
  14. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    14,854
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Twin Citay!
    Wow on that Aussie litter I totally would have pegged the black and white one as a BC and the second one from the right looks like a mixed breed. Thanks for posting that Laur!
     
  15. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    3,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    fiver
    Location:
    B-ville
    Home Page:
    Have you ever met Jane's Finn? He's a Britta kid... and looks quite a bit like the second from the left (BC-like) dog. For that matter, all of Jane's dogs are related and if you stand them next to one another, I'd never be able to tell!
     
  16. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yeah there are several agility Aussies around here about whom I was on the fence...Aussie or BC...til they turned away on the course and I saw they were tailless lol. In their case it's the face shape, slighter build/smaller size, and less coat. Not out of range for an Aussie but toward on extreme, and well within the variation for BCs. For me, usually their head shape and ears give away one vs. the other if nothing else, but certainly not always. I have days where I'm half convinced the reason Aussies continue to be docked is to make them visually distinct from BCs ;)

    Then again I know a merle BC who was born stumpy-tailed...can't imagine how hard it is for the owners to convince people that he's a BC!
     
  17. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2009
    Messages:
    4,925
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 dogs, 1 cat
    Location:
    NC
    Home Page:
    I know that in the working BC world, determining if a dog is a BC is done solely on working style. There were (are?) some dogs with beardie in their genetics that are still BCs because they work like a BC. BCs without "papers" can be registered on merit, which means that they've proven themselves on the trial field, even if they don't look a thing like what people think a BC should look like. Despite this, the breed does seem to show some common features, even without something as subjective as a typical breed ring standard. I find it all pretty cool!
     
  18. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Honestly, I lucked out on Merlin being docked and being merle.

    My dear friend has an aussie puppy around his age (that she imported, so he has a tail) and she is a black bi... convincing people that he is not a border collie is an ENDLESS BATTLE. lol I can hardly imagine!

    Here is Merlin's family (minus the little guy in the back LOL) property of his breeder
    That's his sister jumping for the cookie lol
    [​IMG]
    and another group shot
    [​IMG]

    When you can't see the tails. and even without all the FLOOF, you are looking at some big differences in looks and sizes.
    All these dogs (or most rather) have their championships and are aussies through and through.. I just think they are a nice example of how, even within a single breeder, you can have a lot of differences and all well within standard
     
  19. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2009
    Messages:
    6,216
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Your poor friend lol

    And yeah while there are some individual differences, the Oracle Aussies couldn't really be mistake for anything else by anyone who know what an Aussie looks like, IMO. They all look very Aussie, tail or no.
     
  20. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Maybe it's because I look at them all the time I see all these grand differences :rofl1:

    and seriously.. I think she has started to kind of get worn down and stopped correcting people :rofl1:

    Merlin gets "australian cattle dog" all the time.. but I think that's just mistaken breed names and not an actually look thing LOL he doesn't look very..cattledogy
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page