Coolies

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by avaloncoolies, Jan 4, 2013.

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  1. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Thought I would be rude commenting on ZipTies thread but yet really wanted to answer the questions posed, such valid questions:

    Registries available for information and record keeping on this breed:
    .Koolie Club of Australia
    .Working Koolie Club
    .Aus. Coolie Council
    .International GC Society & Registry Aus.branch
    .International GC Society & Registry USA branch

    They all have a code of ethics and a breed standard (some differ from others), records of dogs and kennels. German Coolies have had a record kept of them in Aus and overseas by the IGCS&R.

    They have been bred for working stock, large numbers of sheep or cattle over big arid spaces. Best worker to best worker is how this breed came about existing. They are upright workers and do not "lock on" to stock, very fluid, quiet and confident. Preserving them as "working dogs" is very important to this breeds history, it is what made them so special in the first place. They "back sheep", short cut to gates, fence stuck sheep, splitting up in chutes...they will jump on top of the sheep and run across their backs, the handler then give a "drop" command and dog drops into the herd to push....this is a trait particular to the coolie, and personally this is one of the traits that leads coolies to want to climb things, and explains how they are built to clear 6ft fencing from a stand still.

    They have started to catch the eye of sport homes around the world, Finland, Netherlands, Germany, Canada, USA, for sports like agility, flyball, rallyo and so much more...but we must not forget about what they were bred for in all of the excitement. And as the breed begins to establish itself overseas I do strongly believe breeders (aus and others) need to be diligent in whom they allow breeding rights to...preservation of their herding instinct, health, history and stable temperament depends on it. The qualities found in working dogs (stock) are what makes these dogs versatile at all the other things people are wanting to use them for.

    Breeding rights are NOT just a RIGHT...its a privilege. In my case using my dogs on stock was VERY important to my breeders decision to send me dogs with breeding in the future on the table. In 2007 when we brought our first coolies over we understood we were introducing a new breed to North America and having different lines for a healthy gene pool was crucial and having the right combinations were even more important, basically having a plan for where we were going with this...One of my boys was 8 months, another was 11months, one girl was 4months and only one of my imports was actually 8 weeks when we greeted them at the airport...the check list had to check out first before anyone was going to come overseas...working ability, right lines, right combos, right temperament, right time and more...One of the things I do respect Linds breeder for is his passion for coolies remaining a working breed, and to have proven working parents for breeding.

    One of the reason I do not allow breeding contracts (other then being burnt once before) is to monitor that all these important points are being met. There is no need to "shape" this breed anywhere (USA or other), it is perfect just the way it is...if bred for specifics (sport specifics) the breed might not look, act or be the same in 5 to 7 years overseas because in AUs they are 95% of the time bred for stock. There is enough division in this breed that we do not need to add a geographical element to this division. By that I mean if now USA coolie lines look and act differently by loosing their herding ability then now we will have German Coolies, Australian Koolies and American K?Coolies....^sigh

    Now I know we must revisit the health testing thing, and honestly from someone who needed these dogs to work the ranch and represent my training abilities, certification has never been a concern for me (even while placing pups over the last 6 years with sport homes), mainly because amongst working ranchers it is just not important. Certification is important to dedicated performance homes more so then us ranchers. So I understand the desire to have these certification for guarantee for their dogs career as a champion...I, myself, had never experienced the passion behind such tests until Chaz, and for the professional goals set by these sport homes it should be important for you when you are investing $1000+ for your next champion. So I think if I do choose to go more seriously into "the niche" of sports I will have to certify my dogs for sure...I am not against dogs being tested, not at all...just never saw the benefit for me...but yes there is benefit for the buyer for sure...and the breed when there is a history of HD and I might continue to take interest in the process as we go...if this breed keeps moving forward in this direction (performance) it might have to be sooner rather then later.
    I think what transpired in my welcome thread, other then my caught off guard by the passion behind certification, was my fear that this breed is being “popularized†and impulsively mass imported with the sole purpose of targeting the dog sport performance “market†or “niche†(terms I would never use in my breeding program). I do apologize for my reaction, and my history with Linds and Sara should not have anything to do with any of you.

    I truely am wanting to share a different point of view and angle on this amazing breed with people who obviously are interested in learning more. And I hope to be able to do that with you all.
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Thank you for your level headed, well worded post. I can completely understand being thrown off and taking the defensive.

    We're not so bad here. :)
     
  3. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    See thats the thing I have never "been concerned about selling"....my concern has always been the breed being popularized and bred away from their original purpose, and in the process moving the breed away from what makes it so special, but being embraced by peers because there is certification on the parents....see if you were to ask me about my "mission statement" it would be geared towards working farms, not performance, there are more performance homes willing to "try new things" then Ranchers....I mean they die hard by what they know works, so it has been very difficult for me to crack the door open and my coolies work....they stick to what they know and NOrth American Ranchers dont know Coolies at all, so they are reluctant to try....so i know from experience how hard it is to prove yourself and your dogs in the working stock world, took me years to find a experience herding mentor that knew coolies, she has been a HUGE help to me, could not imagine doing it without her....it will practically IMPOSSIBLE to place pups in a working farms from sport bred parents I can say that much....so yes the herding aspect of the coolie being lost is what has me worried when specificaly bred for sports...heath testing doesnt scare me, not selling pups doesnt scare me....but that does
     
  4. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    I applaud you for being brave enough to say this. You have my respect.
     
  5. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    Interesting information! Thanks for sharing, I do like learning about working stockdog breeds. It seems, similar to border collies, there are a lot of politics involved about preserving the breed as it originated/etc.
     
  6. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Thanks for that, that was very interesting especially the part about their working style. Do you have any good videos of them working? I've only ever been to USBCHA style trials and have no real working experience. But it's fascinating to me.

    Do you think it's alright to sell the breed to sports homes on a non-breeding contract? I know some working BC breeders are ok with this and others are not. The breed has and does interest me a lot, however, I have absolutely zero desire to ever breed any dogs and no real desire to do stock work.

    Do you have much experience with other herding breeds? I'd love to hear from you how you feel that koolies compare to the other herders.
     
  7. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I do have some video on my phone and a lady at one of clinics from this summer taped some work we did with Beiber...when it comes to the chores at the ranch it is hard to take video and work the chores, we have the dogs so only one of us humans has to go out for night time or morning chores at a time...dogs make our job easy lol
    I will try to get the phone footage up

    I do place pups on Non Breeding contracts, have some dogs in flyball, agility, SAR, disc...do not have a problem with that at all, (dogs can remain intact if owners prefer just no "accidents") But for me to entertain a breeding contract (amongst other things) I would have to request the dogs be active working dogs, not just HIT...on going lessons, trialing, farm chores, be trained and "borowed" by other ranchers for work (actually have a owner that has that, she has taken some herding lessons and the dog has caught on faster then the handler....friend owns a hobby farm and borrowed her dog for the weekend to do chores when old dog wasnt well) just some kind of "herding instinct maintenance program i guess" lol for breeding rights

    I do have experience with other herding breeds, not as a handler with stock...but thru my career as a dog trainer, my herding and sheep handling experience have always been with coolies...I think that might have helped me not be confused with how they work, or any moment of "doubt" they had natural instinct....

    Their working style is very laid back and more comparable to the smooth collie if we had to compare...head high, not a trot but a prance, loose eyes, they almost can look distracted...lol..but they know what they are doing and check in to the head sheeo often but do not lock on...some coolies have more eye then others, I know Malt has lots of eye, Lynn Leach (my mentor) loves that about him...Uggies has lots of eye and crawl apparently, had her in the barn today (17 weeks).....
     
  8. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Thank you for readin my posts and taking the time to comment and ask more, these guys are so awesome...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    Shakou thank you very much. Oko yes indeed breed politics are present in all breeds, and yes it could be comparable to the working BC debate, and I do think that the fact that this breed is smaller in numbers contributes with the intensity in the effects of those politics ...if that made any sense at all :S
     
  10. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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    I found more pics, so will leave you with Borahview WaggaWagga holding sheep ...
     
  11. avaloncoolies

    avaloncoolies New Member

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  12. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    Interesting. Thanks.
     
  13. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    I, too, would be thrilled to see video as most of my herding observation has been with BCs, but I am now starting to work my malinois and cattle dog mix, who are both loose eyed and upright at this stage.

    A while back I looked at Hanging Tree Cow Dogs and found them fascinating in their work as well as the way the breeders have kept them a strictly working stock dog.
     
  14. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    Do you have experience with Kelpies? I am in love with mine but I am also extremely interested in C/Koolies and would like to know how they compare to each other. I have a decent internet presence, and am also extremely active in sports with my dogs. I would love to help get the breed more recognition in the states (won't be for awhile since my Kelpie is only 8 months old). We are dabbling in herding but I am mostly focusing on my Corgi right now - although I believe I will get my Kelpie and GSD in at a later date. My Kelpie came from a large working cattle farm so I think his temperament is "true" to the breed (and my breeder says the same as that is what she runs primarily on her ranch) and gives me a pretty good look at what to expect out of a working herding breed. We also have a sport bred Border Collie. Any comparisons you have to make to those breeds I think I will grasp. I am extremely interested in the basic nature of the breed though, particularly since you have a large-ish pack, as do I.
     
  15. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Totally OT but your mal is loose eyed and mine were both told to have strong eyes by BC owners. That is until Sloan when in for the noms on a goat but humorously they even said sometimes the best start out so rough.

    I'm now curious how malinois should herd, as well.
     
  16. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    I did some little herding stuff with Judge, mainly bringing up roping cattle when friends were roping. I was told by the rancher I know that Judge herds more like the Catahoula crosses he has. I wonder how they are supposed to look or what breeds they could be compared too. I know Judge is too rough for goats and sheep but he will work a cow just fine. His nephew works on a cattle ranch. I don't know, watching a good herding dog is amazing.
     
  17. OwnedByBCs

    OwnedByBCs Will Creep For Sheep

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    Ok, I mean no offense by this- but to me, those dogs look exactly like working bred Border Collies. They also look totally different than the other Coolies I've seen. I guess I don't see much consistency from kennel to kennel, so it confuses me when you say that this breed doesn't need to develop at all- because It seems pretty far spread out to me. (of course that happens with any breed, but since it seems like they haven't gotten into the show ring yet I don't understand why there is such a huge variety)
     
  18. Airn

    Airn New Member

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    I agree. I'm all up for learning about other breeds. I really don't know much about Koolies. And the C/K thing totally annoys me. I know, not your fault, but still. Stick with a letter!

    But your's look more like BC's or a BC/Kelpie/cattle dog cross. If you say they are Koolies, than I believe you because I don't know enough to disagree. But.... I can only tell you what I think.

    It seems that people will listen and learn from you, as long as you don't want to create drama. I'm new here too. If people are nice to me, I'm generally nice back. Starting off on the wrong foot here appears hard to get back from, but the forum is forgiving.

    It would be nice to see a different side, since it appears you and Sara/Linds are taking very different approaches to breeding Koolies. Neither are right or wrong. As long as no one acts holier than thou, it should go over nicely.
     
  19. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    To be fair, I know border collies that look nothing like 'border collies' (people peg them for Australian Shepherds). As far as I can tell, like in working border collies, the breed is shaped by their herding instincts, not how they look. I'm not sure why a breed would need to develop into dogs that all look the same.
     
  20. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    It's confusing and malinois span a great variety of looks but in the end it's not too hard to see yes mal, no mal. How does one tell what a koolie or coolie should look like?

    And yes, while I don't expect a show standard a type standard be it for form and or just function is not unreasonable to request of any breed.
     
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