Constructional Aggression Treatment

[Zoom]

I'll be following this with interest. I remeber that Doberluv did something similar with Lyric and his reactivitity, though I think she just called it "threshold training" and involved staying one inch behind the threshold, instead of one over.

Good luck! I'm glad to see you're not using Ella's breed as an excuse and are trying to do something about it! Uber-DA or not, a dog should still be expected to behave when on leash.

 

[Chewbecca]

Zoom,

That's just the thing, Ella is 99% of the time EXCELLENT on leash and in general.
It's ONLY when she spots another dog that she instantly becomes "bad dog".

 

[Zoom]

Becca, that's what I'm getting at.

 

[Chewbecca]

It's so my dream to make her a therapy dog because she LOVES people.
ESPECIALLY the elderly.
Her new BFF is my next door neighbor.
Everytime we walk by her house, Ella tries to take me towards their sunroom/back patio area.

 

[dr2little]

But, but...for me there is nothing but negative behavior to reinforce at this time.
So, basically, we've resorted to avoidance as it is and turning around and going in the other direction if we see another dog.
OR, if she spots a dog and reacts, we turn around and go the other direction, and once she complies and goes with me, turns away from the other dog and stops looking back, we give praise.
But it doesn't change the fact that she reacts poorly (that's putting it lightly, too) to other dogs.

So whether I were to reward for avoidance behavior right now or actual positive behavior, how is Ella worse off?

Ella is exactly the kind of case where CAT can work very well. I think it bares mentioning that shut down, learned helplessness, and other possible side effects are not nearly as likely as one might think. This is not the kind of flooding that would bring on those types of responses from 99% of dogs...maybe with a complete cowering, shrinking violet...MAYBE... but those dogs are not good candidates for CAT anyway.

The way that Chewbecca described it from the first post makes me feel confident that her trainer has at least a good handle on the technique and while this is her first case, she seems to understand thresholds very well.

 

[corgipower]

would use it if nothing else worked, and with Ella, you seem to be at that point.

So whether I were to reward for avoidance behavior right now or actual positive behavior, how is Ella worse off?

She's probably not. You've done a lot and at the point you're at it's worth trying this. And in some cases, avoidance behaviors aren't a bad thing. I taught a fear biter to lie down when afraid. It didn't change the fear, but it did make it impossible for her to bite anyone. Eventually, the lying down gave her a chance to think things over, assess the situation, and realize that she didn't need to be afraid.

The problem with avoidance behaviors is that they are still fear based. The other problem is that they only serve to buy time. If Ares approaches Nyx, Nyx's first response is to sniff the ground - displacement, avoidance. That gives me time to diffuse the situation (read: get them away from each other). If I don't get them separated in quickly, Nyx will stop sniffing and become actively defensive (read: I'll have a dog fight to stop.)

Now, over the course of a few months (with minimal chances to interact, so it might have taken less time otherwise) Nyx is beginning to offer acceptable approaches (play bows, coming under him instead of over, lying down - not to be submissive but to be at his height) and Ares is briefly tolerant.

I've heard of CAT trainers who state that sniffing the ground is among the alternate behaviors they like to see. I have a hard time with a training approach that seeks out avoidance behaviors. A dog in a high level of stress isn't able to think clearly. Avoidance behaviors might be keeping his stress levels slightly lower so that some thinking can take place. It's important for the owner to understand though that a dog offering displacement avoidance behaviors might switch to aggression if the avoidance doesn't make the threat go away.

 

[Chewbecca]

I am hoping she does, Doc.

Ella is a VERY easy dog to read. She is VERY expressive with her body language.
Her ears speak VOLUMES as to her mood.
This is EXACTLY what my trainer mentioned to me on the phone.
She said, "Miss Ella is a very easy dog to read. She has those ears and those eyes."


You all have to understand, too, that we have DONE the WHOLE as-positive-as-can-be method to treating Ella's dog aggression.

We had a year of my trainer bringing her dog into the training room where we would treat Ella after she followed "watch me". We tried at first having her bring her dog in and putting her dog on the other side of the room, in the corner, with her back and butt towards Ella, in a downstay, while we did "watch me" with Ella. Then as Ella calmed and paid attention to us, my trainer would allow her dog into a sit position. Then eventually we would do rally-o in the room with Ella while her dog was back in a downstay with her back and butt towards Ella. Eventually, Ella would work the rally-o course, but one slight movement from my trainer's dog, and Ella would freak out.


I wish you all could see how Ella reacts to other dogs, so you would not think that I might be over-reacting or exaggerating her reaction to other dogs.
And it's NOT just leash aggression/reactivity. Ella, I know, would DAMAGE a dog if off leash.


And this is just ONE dog. Even if Ella calms around my trainer's ONE dog, what if she's simply just adjusted to that ONE dog? What if her reactivity levels go back up when she's exposed to another dog?


This treatment is worth a shot to me.

 

[Chewbecca]

She's probably not. You've done a lot and at the point you're at it's worth trying this. And in some cases, avoidance behaviors aren't a bad thing. I taught a fear biter to lie down when afraid. It didn't change the fear, but it did make it impossible for her to bite anyone. Eventually, the lying down gave her a chance to think things over, assess the situation, and realize that she didn't need to be afraid.

The problem with avoidance behaviors is that they are still fear based. The other problem is that they only serve to buy time. If Ares approaches Nyx, Nyx's first response is to sniff the ground - displacement, avoidance. That gives me time to diffuse the situation (read: get them away from each other). If I don't get them separated in quickly, Nyx will stop sniffing and become actively defensive (read: I'll have a dog fight to stop.)

Now, over the course of a few months (with minimal chances to interact, so it might have taken less time otherwise) Nyx is beginning to offer acceptable approaches (play bows, coming under him instead of over, lying down - not to be submissive but to be at his height) and Ares is briefly tolerant.

I've heard of CAT trainers who state that sniffing the ground is among the alternate behaviors they like to see. I have a hard time with a training approach that seeks out avoidance behaviors. A dog in a high level of stress isn't able to think clearly. Avoidance behaviors might be keeping his stress levels slightly lower so that some thinking can take place. It's important for the owner to understand though that a dog offering displacement avoidance behaviors might switch to aggression if the avoidance doesn't make the threat go away.

Ah. I do understand. The thing is, too though, I probably read dog behavior a bit better than the average person who walks their overly friendly, yet rude dog down the street barely attached to their flexi-lead, but I still pretty much suck at reading dog behavior. I swear I wish I was a dog when it comes to Ella, so I could know what she's saying, or have a better understanding to why she dislikes dogs so much, or what her behaviors mean.
I wish she could tell me WHY she doesn't like other dogs because the WHY would solve so much right now.


Due to the circumstances (and there were several) occurring when we discovered Ella's true dog aggression, I cannot figure it out.


I do know that if an off leash dog rushes up to us (which has not happened often) and Ella sees it, and by this point she is already stiffening and posturing and doing what dogs do when they don't like something, IF I step forward and firmly tell the dog to GO HOME, GET AWAY, she will INSTANTLY calm down and move forward, away from the other dog.
At least, that is what she's done with this one (and only) off leash dog that likes to rush us on walks.

 

[Chewbecca]

Also!
CP, do you have a link to that ENTIRE article?
I'd love to print it out and read it and bring it to my trainer.

 

[corgipower]

Also!
CP, do you have a link to that ENTIRE article?
I'd love to print it out and read it and bring it to my trainer.

The one I posted a link to? That's all I have. Might be nice to have the illustrations. Is there another article I'm forgetting?

 

[elegy]

i'm very curious how this will go. i've read some about CAT and i will cross my fingers that it will help with ella.

have you done any relaxation work with her?

 

[Chewbecca]

I've done massage, yes, but not much of anything else, unless you name off a few relaxation techniques that I might have been doing and was unaware of.

CP, yes, that is the article.

 

[corgipower]

CP, yes, that is the article.

That's the only link I have. It says it's from the whole dog journal, May 08. You can contact them and see if they can get you a copy - they mention being able to fax articles.

 

[Boemy]

Best of luck with the training! It must be incredibly stressful having to keep your eyes peeled for other dogs while on walks. You never know when you'll turn a corner and stumble on a dog-walker.

 

[Chewbecca]

Best of luck with the training! It must be incredibly stressful having to keep your eyes peeled for other dogs while on walks. You never know when you'll turn a corner and stumble on a dog-walker.

Well, it's gotten better because I've adjusted.
I take corners widely and keep Ella tightly next to me. I step before her, so that I can take any surprises first.
And as I said, I walk her in very limited areas. If I have to, I'll continuously circle the block right in front of my house for 20 minutes.
She still gets her exercise, and if we encounter an off leash dog, that I don't spot first, then at least we aren't far from home.

 

[CharlieDog]

Wow. I wonder if I could find a trainer who would be willing to try this with Ozzy.

Best of luck Becca!

 

[Chewbecca]

Hey!
You can move to Illinois and use my trainer.

I'm thinking about bringing my camera with to possibly record any progress.

 

[GoingNowhere]

Thanks, guys.
Have any of you ever heard of this form of behavior modification?

I had read about this method in the whole dog journal a while ago. I also am interested to see how it goes.

I'm not a professional 'trainer' by any means, but after reading and looking into CAT, it seems like a unique, but useful training technique. Not positive reinforcement, but not exactly negative reinforcement either. You aren't feeding the dog cookies, but you aren't jerking them around either. The dog is rewarded for good behavior by having the 'bad object' taken away. The dog is (for lack of a better word) 'corrected' for negative behavior by being forced to endure the thing which it dislikes.

Someone was saying that this can be like flooding the dog. Just from what I've heard about the method, this doesn't seem to be the case. After all, in order to know that your dog has DA of this degree, clearly the dog has been in a situation in the past in which the object of its distaste (in this case, another dog), was within its comfort zone/threshold. It sounds as if every time Ella is on a walk and another dog comes around the bend, it is in her threshold. CAT is merely having that other dog 'come around the bend' in a controlled environment, with a trainer standing on, and a dog that you know wont react on the end of the other leash. So it seems that, at least in a case such as this, there isn't much further downhill to go. Worst that happens is that Ella is 'flooded' with the other dog (as she is during every walk in which she sees another dog) she reacts, and wont settle down. Which wouldnt be any worse than it sounds like it is now. It's not like their muzzling her and throwing her in a coop with 5 other dogs. **Thinks of Caesar M.**

Of course, I haven't actually used this treatment, but it seems like a really useful correctional training tool when used with dogs that already have difficult "issues". Obviously you wouldn't use it with a dog that doesn't already have issues. So I wish you the best of luck, and I'd love to hear updates.

-GoingNowhere

 

[Chewbecca]

thank you!

It is a negative reinforcement method, though.
But the thing is, people think negative reinforcement is bad; it isn't.

Not unless you are reinforcing an unwanted behavior.

This is how +/- reinforcement and +/- punishment were taught to me in my abnormal psych. It was the easiest way to get it. So it's just the gist:
*Positive reinforcement- you give something to someone to make them feel good, or to reinforce a behavior (hopefully you are reinforcing a positive/good behavior):
Dog sits, you give cookie to dog to reinforce a sitting behavior again. That's
positive reinforcement.

*negative reinforcement-you take away something to make someone feel good or take away something to reinforce a behavior:
Ella sees other dog, Ella freaks out, Ella calms herself down, trainer walks away with dog (the dog Ella doesn't like) and Ella feels good now because the dog is away. HOPEFULLY, you are reinforcing a calming, good behavior. But the calming behavior has to happen first, before the dog is taken away. If all goes well, your dog will LEARN to think that
A. not all dogs are bad and they will not be hurt by an encounter with another dog.
B. to think about calming itself and not reacting because if it calms itself, then bad thing goes away. Which I can totally see what CP is talking about how you want to avoid reinforcing avoidance behaviors because, just because a dog can calm itself around another dog, you don't want the dog to think that if it calms itself ALL THE TIME, the bad thing (the dog) will go away ALL THE TIME. Because the dog may NOT go away ALL THE TIME.

Punishments. These are generally the bad thing.
Positive Punishment-you give something to someone to make them feel bad. You punish to STOP a behavior. You never CHANGE the behavior, though. You don't teach a dog to CHANGE their behavior, only to not do something when you are around because they want to avoid receiving something unpleasant (think a prong pop, a smack, yelling, hitting).

Negative punishment- you take away something from someone to make them feel bad. You take away something to punish a behavior in hopes to stop the behavior.
Again, not teaching anything good here, just bad stuff, really.
Take away a teenager's car keys because they came home late.
You take away television because your son didn't do his homework.

though, I'm not sure how negative punishment would work with dogs. My brain is tired and hot because I just got back from my walk with Ella.

 

[dr2little]

I had read about this method in the whole dog journal a while ago. I also am interested to see how it goes.

I'm not a professional 'trainer' by any means, but after reading and looking into CAT, it seems like a unique, but useful training technique. Not positive reinforcement, but not exactly negative reinforcement either. You aren't feeding the dog cookies, but you aren't jerking them around either. The dog is rewarded for good behavior by having the 'bad object' taken away. The dog is (for lack of a better word) 'corrected' for negative behavior by being forced to endure the thing which it dislikes.

It actually IS negative reinforcement in it's most organic form. and there is also a flooding element though it is extremely short duration and never breaking threshold enough to cause the typical flooding fall back. Again, this is not a technique that I would use on every dog (anyone who knows me knows how I feel about aversives) but for some, like Ella, it can be the method that finally allows her to regain a big part of life.-

EDIT - Oops, I should have read Chews post before I wrote mine...