Comment on my video please.

JoeLacy

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I agree, you establish a relationship, and set rules they can live by before the bad habits develop. A new dog does not know the rules, it's easier to train "right" in the first place than break bad habits later. I'm all about giving a dog time, but at the same time we have to move forward. Just letting a dog go wild without any direction is setting him up to fail later and only adds to the frustration of the trainer down the line.

Jax is shy and I understand that, but at the same time we have to move forward to help him overcome his fears. Unless he learns it's ok and those items won't cause him any harm, I would only be reinforcing those fears and he learns that's acceptable behavior.

I wouldn't teach my son to swim by throwing him into the deep end of swimming pool, but I would strongly encourage him to sit on the steps of the shallow end, then move forward once "he's" comfortable. That's exactly what I'm doing with Jax to help him get past some of this and he is responding well. If I saw him completely shut down at any point, I would back him off but I'm just not seeing that because we start at the "shallow end" first.

I didn't take Jax and forced him on that bridge with the bikes, we spent almost an hour starting at 50 feet away watching bikes and joggers and me watching his reactions. We moved forward in about 10 foot increments, when I saw him relax and loose his urge to lunge, we moved forward. After an hour we went on the bridge and you saw the results, not entirely comfortable but he did ok and much better than when we started. I bet I could take him to that bridge this morning and we could start at 10 feet this time or maybe he would walk right on without fear. In any case he stopped his lunging.

If you never see your dog do anything wrong, you can't correct it. Unless you find the failure points you can't help them move past it. If you ignore it, it will never get any better. If your dog needs to learn a correct way to behave, when is a good time to start? It's a no-brainer to me, get a dog and start training and conditioning right away, the sooner he knows the rules and get's past his fears the better everyone will feel, including the dog.
 

JoeLacy

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New milestone! Stay is taught at least in concept. Before today I could not back up more than 1/2 step. Today, I did 8 feet with him several times, with a single command and double command at others. He gets the concept now and that was the very last piece I needed for his basics. Congats 2 JAX!

I approached stay a little differently today. I took him to the Dog park and ran him for a solid hour, then on the way to the car, we found a shade tree. To stay meant do nothing and he was so tired it was easy for him not to get up and easier for me too. Ah, the power of exhaustion!
 

Dekka

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If you never see your dog do anything wrong, you can't correct it. Unless you find the failure points you can't help them move past it. If you ignore it, it will never get any better. If your dog needs to learn a correct way to behave, when is a good time to start? It's a no-brainer to me, get a dog and start training and conditioning right away, the sooner he knows the rules and get's past his fears the better everyone will feel, including the dog.
Actually you should look up errorless learning. Animals don't need to make mistakes to be trained to high levels of obedience. I suggest reading Shaping Success.

I do agree to start training early, but not that they need to be corrected for mistakes.
 

JoeLacy

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Hi Dekka,

I won't argue with your merits of training and I'm always as postive as I can be. Having said that, if you come home and find your kitchen counter has been surfed and there's nobody with their paws in the cookie jar, there's nobody to correct. If you see Fido in Moms apple pie then you can correct.

That may work for all time or the dog may learn to surf when you're not around. In that case, you try the spoons and cookie sheet crashing down deterrent. My point is, if you don't know you have a surfer you can't correct it ahead of time.

In a perfect dog world no puppy would ever mouth you, my world is not so perfect so I yelp.

Let's not turn this into a training philosophy/methodology thread please. We all have different approaches that work for us and most of us have good dogs in the end and, in many many cases better trained dogs than the general public. I got off on a tirade there and am sorry for doing so. Let's talk Jax!
 

Dekka

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It wasn't debating... i was just trying to give you a new avenue you might not know of...

fine i will stay out of your thread geesh...
 

JoeLacy

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Please come back! No harm no fowl! I didn't mean anything by it, promise. I'll check out that book, thanks.

I have some final thoughts tomorrow on this last few weeks, then won't keep the thread alive. I found a dog and took him to basics 101 and this thread will end there.

I want to thank everyone for all the support, time and effort you've put into this with me. Thank you for the positive and even the negative feedback. Thanks for making me think and force me to second guess myself and ...watching those poor quality videos as well as reading my rants.

It's been a fun thing to do and write about. I met a lot of wonderful dogs who deserve good homes, but unfortunately I could not adopt them all. I met some dog people I liked and others I didn't care for, so it goes in life.

In the end did I make the perfect choice for me? You'll have to wait until tomorrow to know.
 

JoeLacy

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My two dogs are different in that...

My Aussie is Metallica
My Border is Harry Connick jr.

My Aussie is a Red Ferrari
My Border is a Nascar stock car

My Aussie is fine Champagne
My Border is 20 year old Scotch

My Aussie is a Girls dog
My Border is a Boys dog

My Aussie looks through me
My Border looks at me

My Aussie is a doer
My Border is a thinker

My Aussie is all about her
My Border is all about me

My Aussie is hyper
My Border is relaxed

My Aussie has ideas of her own
My Border looks to me for ideas

My Aussie has mood swings
My Border is mentally consistent

My Aussie is immediately friendly
My Border is immediately cautious

My Aussie is Alpha
My Border is Beta

My Aussie is mostly black
My Border is mostly white

My Aussie is a runner
My Border is a jumper

My Aussie worries about nothing
My Border worries about everything

My Aussie will never CGC
My Border will CGC in a week

It's Laurel and Hardy, Mutt and Jeff, Ying and Yang, hot and cold, sweet and sour at my house. My two dogs are just completely different dogs.

Jax breaks all the stereotypical clichés for Bcollies. He’s not hyper, not obsessive and not incredibly smart in the sense I would have thought. Jax is not a quick learner like Peyton was during her basics. It took 2x as long to train the exact same commands. I'm not sure why this is, but it's just fact. I also found training Jax alone gained faster results and that may account for the learning differences in time. Whatever the reason, this is what I truly believe and I've trained both of them in basics start to finish and neither knew anything on day one with me. Jax now knows Sit, down, heal, look, leave it, drop it, stay (sorta), off, up, ok.

Where Jax excels over Peyton is his perception. My sense is he would be the kind of child that if you told them something they would want to know the why behind my statement. Then repeat it back to me just so he understood, then does it. Jax needs a different level (deeper) of understanding I think. It could be too, he’s just not settled in, but then Peyton was not settled in either when I started her basics. In any case I would not call Jax a super super quick learner like Peyton. He get's there but it's in the slow lane.

Peyton does her commands with real snap. Jax is more slow moving but does them fine. Jax is watches TV, is self aware, he's a planner before he reacts, looks for airplanes flying in the sky. Peyton is able to reverse my commands on her own and string my actions to her actions, but for her, the shortest distance is a straight line and she couldn't care less where the sound comes from or who's in the mirror or what's on TV.

Peyton has great eye expression. I know when she is excited, afraid, unsure, sad or mad at me. Jax eyes don’t change and I find it hard to read what he’s thinking just by looking in his eyes.

Both are equally as sweet and gentle. Peyton is a rough and tumble player. Jax wouldn't play at first with her, but now is giving her a run for her money. Both are happy playful dogs, and neither has shown any signs of aggression towards any dogs or people, ever. Jax doesn’t like to play with dogs at the dog park. He just wants to chase his tennis ball. Peyton wants to chase the dog that has the tennis ball.

If I had to choose a dog to win friends and influence people, Peyton would be on my leash. If I had to walk 100 miles with a dog, it would be Jax.

Jax could be a therapy dog, Peyton would cause those who encounter her to “need†therapy after a while.

Peyton would be a great girlfriend to have, wild, fun, energetic, quick witted. Jax would be the kind you would want to marry and have children with, solid, dependable, and predictable. Jax idea of a good time might be sipping a latte and going to see a romantic movie. Peytons idea would be throwing down tequila shots, and hitting the dance floor until dawn.

The lady at the rescue described Jax to me as a “good fellaâ€. She was right, Jax is just a very good guy. He doesn’t chew things, bark, growl; he doesn’t require a lot of attention, he’s just as happy to hang out on the floor napping as playing with Peyton. He’s not dog, cat, squirrel or people reactive. He’s just a good solid dog and the type most people could only dream of. Jax temperament could be described as quiet, reserved, non assuming, sweet, social, easy going and easy to mold into an exceptional house pet.

My goal when looking for a dog was two fold; A playmate for Peyton and companion dog for me. Jax has met those goals. He has adapted well to a variety of new situations. It takes him a little while to warm up to the newness, then he goes along with the program just fine.

What I learned from all this is simply you can’t judge a dog by its breed. You have to judge a dog on the dog. Select the dog that has the innate attributes that meet a set of well defined personal goals, and remember your first impressions may not always be correct. If you choose a dog with your mind, your heart will most likely follow.

This is the end of this thread but only the beginning for Jax. Jax will continue his basics on his way to CGC certification, but even if he never passes, he will always be a Canine Good Citizen to me.

I want to thank everyone once again for your tireless patience and support in this thread. It's been fun to explore and share.

Joe
 

smkie

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THank you for a wonderful read first thing this morning. The journey has been interesting and this comparison is a grand tribute to both of your dogs. I hope you send this post to both places where you adopted because I bet it would please them to no end. I am happy for all of you. :)
 
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Zoom

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That's great he's learned so much so quickly. As he settles in and more time passes, I think you'll see more of his personality break through as well. I'd still recommend doing the CGC class, just to proof him around another set of distractions and such. Good luck!
 

JoeLacy

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Thanks Zoom, I agree he needs proofing and probably cgc classes. He did do over 15' on stay several times today, it's definitively getting better. I think 20' is the standard long line test if I'm not mistaken and I'll have him doing that in the next few days. I'm training only sit/down and stay for the rest of the week. Peyton is slammin' rock solid on all those so she can help too. He'll get there he has the temperament.
 

JoeLacy

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Thanks Zoom, I agree he needs proofing and probably cgc classes. He did do over 15' on stay several times today, it's definitively getting better. I think 20' is the standard long line test if I'm not mistaken and I'll have him doing that in the next few days. I'm training only sit/down and stay for the rest of the week. Peyton is slammin' rock solid on all those so she can help too. He'll get there he has the temperament.
 

Lolas Dad

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I had Lola doing sit and stays for 75' in the middle of the dog park before we did the CGC, I figured if a dog park isn't distracting her from being focused then nothing will. When I would call her she would come running directly to me and then I would give her a reward.
 

JoeLacy

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That's what I was thinking Lola. I didn't expect it to work out there but it did. I don't know how far I backed up but it wasn't 15 feet, 30-50 is by guess, but it seemed like a mile.

Something different happened earlier today when we were training at 15 feet. Jax locked eyes with me in a dead stare. It was the first time I felt he was looking through me. He understood what I wanted, and didn't forget later at the DP. Jax has the concept.

Just on a personal note: I was walking through a parking lot today, with a Jax and Peyton on each side of me and was drinking a coke. I thought to myself, I might as well have been drinking hot coffee because I haven't even spilled a drop. It felt really nice and very relaxed for all.
 

Lolas Dad

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That's what I was thinking Lola.
Well you do know that Lola does not know how to use a computer yet. She does sit on her butt on my lap and has her front paws near the keyboard though so I think she is trying :rofl1:

Anyhow do you have a copy of the CGC test?. One of the things that is part of the test is you have to walk your dog past a treat that has been placed on the floor. You then turn around and walk back past the treat except this time the handler picks it up and when you return to the evaluator you are then allowed to give your dog the treat. At no time is the dog allowed to lunge for it.

Earlier I was telling the evaluator how Lola does not pick up any treats from the floor unless I tell her which one to get and when so I told her now you will see what I was talking about earlier and I placed the treat on the floor. Lola sat their looking at it and she only picked it up when I pointed to it and said get it. The evaluator was quite impressed.
 

smkie

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NOt spilling a drop is wonderful. Not having to worry about spilling a drop is even better. Wonderful job on the stay.
 

JoeLacy

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Anyhow do you have a copy of the CGC test?. At no time is the dog allowed to lunge for it.
I don't have a copy of the test, just been watching Youtube videos and trying to train off those.

Leave it was one of the first commands I taught Jax. Yesterday, we were walking on a sidewalk and there was a Pigeon about 3 feet away. Jax saw it, I said leave it and he never even glanced back over to it and we walked right on by calmly and the Pigeon didn't fly away. It worked for those joggers, bikes and anything else he gets a little too focused on. In the house I add leave it to every sit/down session we do for treats. He does a pretty good job.

Jax has turned into kind of a big brother figure to Peyton. I started noticing that yesterday at the DP. Peyton let out a yelp and he was right over there checking her out nose to nose. He checked in a few other times, just to make sure she was ok throughout the DP session. They touch noses first thing in the morning, just to say hey, then they go try to wake up. They are working out very well. I saw him put his body in between another dog and Peyton as if he needed to check this dog out before it got too close to her. I'm not sure if that was just chance or deliberate, but I saw him do it. Jax is really a good guy and apparently becoming a caring friend to Peyton.

Jax is really fast, wow. Those ears go back, he runs low and can cover a lot of ground in a hurry with those long strides. Cheetah fast! He always beats Peyton to the ball, but when they come back, I always toss a ball or two to Peyton directly, just so she "thinks" she got it. Jax never tries to take the ball from her, so everyone is happy.

When I take my dogs to the DP it's a training/exercise/fun session. I'm out there with them and focused on them and get them to focus on me. I looked up yesterday and many people were watching us instead of their own dogs. Jax and Peyton were Pet Stars. :)

Yeah Smkie, not even a drop spilled. I had nearly 100 lbs of herding dogs attached to me on two loose leashes and we were no longer 2 separate dogs and a guy anymore, but instead, we were one calm "unit" and all of us in stride. Walking with your dogs doesn't get better than that, and it had to look as impressive as it felt.

BTW, from all indications Jax is housebroken now and it took less than a week. He has adapted well to our waking, eating, pooping schedule. He slept out of his crate last night for the first time and no surprises for me this morning. We went out first thing, he did his biz just like Peyton. They came in and waited in the kitchen for breakfast. I "think" he's getting our rhythm down.

I know I said I was going to let this thread die, but you guys seem interested and enjoying it so I'll keep posting. I love my dogs and like sharing my thoughts, but then you guys can probably sense that.
 

smkie

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Every girl needs a big brother. WAy to go Jax.


IF i trained at the dog park I could see Victor and Pepper putting their lips out and protesting no fair. THey would not be happy about it at all :rofl1: YOur dogs are great sports for being so good there.
 

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