CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Dogdragoness, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. rubygirl

    rubygirl New Member

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    I have a dog that allows me in her bowl. I can walk up behind her. I can touch her and pet her. I can take her food away. Meanwhile she's like "so uh, what's up". She doesn't care. Did I toss her cookies and click and then toss her hot dog? No I just started from day one of owning her that the dog food is mine and that it's my right to do whatever I want with it.
    It doesn't take a lot of training to get it done. This family didn't do it and the dog turned out to be a POS. It may have been altered at puppyhood but the dog bit and so in my eyes is worthless.
     
  2. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    What education or experience do you really have in animal behavior? I don't mean to be insulting, (I know it comes across kind of that way...sorry) but your comments clearly show somewhat of a lack of understanding of animal behavior. No. The other dog would normally and immediately back down and go away at the first hard glance from the dog with the food. In fact, the vast majority of dogs won't attempt to take possession of food that another dog already has possession of...very rare.
     
  3. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    On a serious note that dog did MINIMAL damage. Like, nothing compared to what a real bite looks like. That dog was trying to avoid the fight, like a cat backed in a corner who swats at a dog, it knows it won't win but terrified it lashes out in hopes to fool the opponent.

    Human, especially their skin, are weak. Very, very weak.

    I got tagged by a pit bull a month ago for crowding its owner the first time I met them and the dog barely touched me yet it caused a similar wound through my khaki pants.

    Having been bitten by my dogs, accidentally, breaking up fights I have a far wore scars and thus I question how many real bites people have experienced to think that is really that horrific.
     
  4. rubygirl

    rubygirl New Member

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    I stated afterwords that I nderstand that a dog is different then a human. I don't know why the sarcasm.
    There's a saying... "When you bring your first child home, a dog becomes a dog".
    If you aren't a mother, you have no idea how viscerally you would react to that video or to a dog having that type of issue. YOU are inexperienced when it comes to understand motherhood...
     
  5. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    So now dogs that are pushed to bite are worthless? This dog is a POS?

    I am hoping you just really like to stir stuff up and talk a big game because if you really feel the way you are coming across....wow.

    I dont toss cookies to my dogs as pups to get them used to me by their food. Usually I am holding the food for them to help them learn to eat raw. Ivy still brings me chunks to "hold" for her at times. Any of them will let me take anything from them. BUT, THIS dog from what I have heard the background is, was tormented while eating. Was messed with and was turned this way by humans. It is fixable so fix it!
     
  6. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    How timely Rubygirl! I got to see the dog-dog example you gave just today! Snipe postured and growled at Kes over her food bowl this morning. Kes usually has priority access to bones and other toys with Snipe (some would say he's "dominant" over her I suppose). Kes backed away from the food bowl. Hmm. Not exactly how you'd have thought it would've ended, eh?

    This link should go to a video of the altercation with Cesar and Holly slowed down and captioned, I found it fascinating. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4655581307021
     
  7. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    No, not all dogs know the pressure of their bite. Not at all true. I have a little Chihuahua boy who wouldn't want to hurt me for the world. He has not one iota of a feeling of defensiveness ever. BUT....he LOVES food. If I don't remind him every time I hand him a small piece of chicken or worse....rib eye steak, he turns into a barracuda. He has no idea how those teeth sink into my hand. I must remind him every time...."gentle...." Or feed with the flat of my hand. I work on it sometimes, then get lazy, so he isn't really very well versed in this area.
     
  8. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Yep, or welcomed the fight it KNEW it was provoking. Not cried for the guarding dog to PTS.

    I had a long response typed up but, really, I don't care if you (generic) would or wouldn't worked with this particular dog. The factors that determine an aggressive dog's prospects are varied and complex, because they determine how easily, how reliably, and how quickly the dog can be made "safe". Not because we like making excuses for the dog, or because I think dogs = people. Because it truly does matter.

    I do find it... appalling... hilarious... terrifying(?) that anyone would find CM's actions appropriate in any way.

    We have bigger brains than dogs. We should use them on occasion.
     
  9. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Are you not reading posts by those of us who ARE mothers? No, my dogs didnt somehow become less when I had children. Yes, there are some things I would no longer feel safe working with in my house for sure because of the children. They do come first BUT, this resource guarding situation is not a threat to them with a simple bit of managing and rehab. No, I am not in a position nor do I want to take one on at this point, I would pass. BUT, its a moot point anyways as I would NEVER let a dog get pushed to that point while in my care.
     
  10. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Good for you. Plenty of people have dogs who USED to resource guard and no longer do thanks to desensitization, counter conditioning, and other positive methods. It's almost as if it's a problem that can be addressed rather than giving up on.

    So the dog is a POS because the people handled this problem incorrectly? Wow.
     
  11. rubygirl

    rubygirl New Member

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    What education do you have?
    I have 13 years of being a dog owner, 7 years of rescuing/fostering (around 220 dogs in total), and I have been asked to deal with dogs behaviours outside my home as well. I also groom, and do canine dental scaling.
    Is that enough for you?
    I don't tolerate s***. Maybe I would if I didn't have kids (my oldest is 7) but as for right now I'm very sensitive about the dogs I allow into my home.
    The dog I have right now (aside from some puppy mouthing- she is 15 months) is bomb proof. My kids can climb on her, sit on her, grab her flews and take things out of her mouth. She will surrender raw meat to my kids (took no additional training for her to do it). She will allow everything/anything.
    And I don't even trust HER completely. I always supervise. I still don't allow the kids around her when she's eating. She doesn't get chews or treats when the kids are around, their play gets too rough- I end that.
    If she EVER bit me my children, my husband or close friends that she is accustomed to hard enough to draw blood-- she would be taken to the vet within the hour and euthanized.
    I don't mean accidental bites, I don't mean she was playing and thought my hand was a tug; I mean an aggressive (yes even food aggressive) bite or attack (the dog in this video attacked he didn't bite).
     
  12. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Very true. My Marley is like that. He is a nervous anxious growly dog but never has even come close to biting, even in the past when he has been pushed (of course I realize that that does not mean he will NOT bite). He has always had a hard bite. Kids know to toss treats to him. I work on gentle over and over and over and he just forgets it really easily. He was from a pound as a pup and was probably not given the time to really learn bite inhibition and I did not know enough about when he was young.

    I keep a very close eye on him as I realize if he did decide to snap one day, (he is getting arthritic etc) he probably would bite fairly hard
     
  13. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Rubygirl, you really need to watch the video again. You're completely missing several steps.

    Cesar puts the bowl of food down and looms over the dog as though challenging her to eat. The dog looks at the food but isn't sure she wants to eat while this dude is looming over here. But she likes food so she decides to go ahead and eat. He then reaches in to try and take the food, she growls and air snaps. He PUNCHES HER IN THE FACE and she air snaps again, but she RETREATS FROM THE FOOD. She walks BACKWARDS. Then he PURSUES HER ANYWAY.

    In your (ridiculous) example, the wife would try to grab the remote and the husband would give a warning, and she would smack him in the face, and the husband would get up and walk away and his wife would keep coming at him, remote now across the room where they had left it. This is no longer even about resource guarding - this is about the wife (CM) being an aggressor and chasing her husband (the dog) down apparently with full intention to start a fight.
    If somebody got in my face and was screaming and I warned them to back off, and they continued to pursue me, and I slugged them... and they CONTINUED to pursue me after that, you can bet my response would be full on punch and punch and punch again. From a biological point of view it IS actually completely normal. Fight or flight. The dog tried to flee and got chased and provoked again! The second time he reached for her, with the same hand he just punched her with, she fought. He had to kick her off - and then he STILL pursued her, even to the point of backing her up into a corner where the dog couldn't even flee anymore.

    Notice, however, when the dog is cornered, she doesn't just lash out as he continues to stand over her in what appears to still be a threatening position. She gives calming signals, she's trying to defuse the situation.


    The video stardogs linked is fabulous.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Ruby, I worry about your skills and education if your only comeback to all of my arguments are "I have kids."

    I would hope you would teach those kids the value of life no matter what species.
     
  15. rubygirl

    rubygirl New Member

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    She wasn't pushed that bloody hard. If she was that sensitive then she's not worth anything... there are plenty of good dogs that are being euthanized in shelters and one pos dog gets precedence over all of those dogs? What's more cruel?
     
  16. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    My god, what a sad, sad take on things. My dog's food is her's, she needs it to live and as her owner I'm obligated to provide her with it. She does let me take it (and anything else she has) because she trusts me, not because I own it. My ego and my imaginary "rights" have nothing to do with things.

    The question of whether to PTS a dog shouldn't be one of "worth." It should be a choice based on consideration of all the complicated factors in the dog's life and the handler's life that either do or do not make the dog manageable and retrainable. Again, not because we're making excuses, but because it matters.

    Deeming the dog "worthless" is so vindictive and childish.

    Have you ever worked with dogs in a professional capacity, rubygirl?

    ETA: I'm willing to bet that there are many dogs with less that rock solid temperaments that are worth their weight in gold to their owners. ;) Lucky for them.
     
  17. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Ok, trying one more time.

    I would not have a dog like this around my kids....because it would never get that far! Take away the punching and attacking on the humans part and the dog wouldve never actually bit.
     
  18. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    WOW.
    Wow.


    So, since you like ridiculous examples, a kid who kills himself over internet bullying... too sensitive and not worth anything? A POS?
     
  19. rubygirl

    rubygirl New Member

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    But it happened to the original owners several times. Did they punch and kick? He did not punch or slap the dog in the face btw- he used his fingers and jabbed her neck.
    Look, I don't advocate Cesar Milan. I don't care what he does. He is the one that wants to keep aggressive dogs alive and rehabilitate them or whatever.
    I wouldn't do it. I would euthanize and move on to the next. Eventually one will find a dog worth owning for 15 or so years.
     
  20. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    That's fine, and that's your choice to make. That's certainly not what I'm taking issues with, at least, and I doubt that's what others are bothered by.
     

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