Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Dogdragoness, Sep 18, 2012.
And no. I'm not trying to be smug.
That is all
I agree with everything Laurelin has said thus far - she's put it far better and more politely than I could.
Murphy would have bit - I don't know if he would have broken skin and I think that the blow CM landed on that dog would have probably shut him down, but there is no doubt in my mind he would have attempted at least one bite. Should I put my 9 year old dog (who has bitten once before and never broken the skin) down because he's unsound? Because he has mild guarding issues with people who aren't me and Matt?
Kady, what gets people all up in arms is that you come into EVERY SINGLE thread where a dog lands a bite and say "Oh well I would just put that dog down." And then, if anyone calls you out on it you get defensive and start a fight. And of course people are going to call you out on it - the world is not black and white. And it is offensive to say that you would put down a dog that has clearly been mishandled over an issue that can easily be fixed because:
Good for you. I come from a "Dogs are dogs and not humans and if I push one over threshold then I **** well deserve a bite frame of mind."
And FTR I don't agree with anyone else who said the dog should be put down. I guess I *should* put Murphy down because he put his mouth on a friend of mine when she tried to take Tipper's food away from him.
Exactly. This is part of what makes me do a double take at the calls to euthanize... the dog didn't just bite out of the blue. She didn't even bite over the food - she air snapped - so the "what if a child dropped some food" type stuff is sort of a strawman. That's not even close to what happened here. The dog didn't bite until she was harassed for an extended period of time after leaving the food. He could have picked up the food anytime he liked after she moved away from it the first time.
I'd like to think anyone here wouldn't allow their child to hover over the dog's food dish while staring at them, punch their dog in the side of the head for snarling and air snapping, and then PURSUE the dog across the room/yard while continuing to stare and loom over the dog while ignoring all the dog's signals to back off. If so... then there are bigger problems than RG going on.
ETA: And I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees RG as a relatively easy fix (or at least a relatively easy manage) for someone who is willing to put the work in. Just seems like such an odd thing to euthanize a dog over (especially when this bite was not really over the food itself but the harassment that followed).
If the bite was "random" I would be equally likely to not euthanize. Talk about reviewing stressors, medical reasons, etc. Then again I don't believe dogs just up and randomly become possessed.
And yes, I believe most of those jumping to this hypothetical dead dog choice have never dealt with such a situation. I believe they have not been bitten by their own dog and marched to the vet or the gun store and said load 'er up, bitch bit me! It's just not that simple when it's your dog.
Those who have though, they do exist, fall into my "please just don't talk to me" category of dog ownership because we obviously lack the same connection of dog lover that I once thought we had.
I do believe there are times when dogs should be killed, I do not however respect blanket statements and a lackluster attitude about working with an "issue" dog before killing it.
9pgs. of posts. I replied.. 8 times. Where have I gotten defensive and started a fight on this topic again? Hell, if I'm being defensive, I'd hate to hear what you'd classify some of the others who have been much more involved in this topic than I have!
Sorry if you're offended by my opinion. I personally feel that I would never own a dog that bit people. I mentioned "Pit Bull" frame of mind because if I had dogs that bit people, that'd be a lot bigger deal than if I owned say, a Lab that bit people. The world doesn't take very kindly to Pit Bulls that bite humans.. not sure if you knew that. And yes, I'm being a bit "smug" now.
Isn't that what forums are for? So people can voice different opinions on topics? Or is that not allowed here?
Never mind that Cesar was staring, hovering over, blocking access to the food, even though that's bad enough. He was pursuing that dog non stop, relentlessly, punching, kicking, and cornering the poor animal. That dog didn't have a chance, even when he lay down and wasn't reacting. Cesar still, egged him on and forcefully elicited the reactions he got. That dog had no choice but to bite. He was being attacked by this maniac!!!!!!!!! What freakin animal, including a human wouldn't defend himself if that's all there was left because escaping wasn't even an option.... as far as I remember...without going back and looking at the yard and so forth. (can't bring myself to watch that again) This is absolutely normal behavior in a situation such as this. Yeah right...push someone, animal or human into a corner, make it think it might be killed and when it tries to preserve it's life the only way it knows how.....KILL IT. THIS IS AN ANIMAL. Animals don't know that you're still planning on letting it live and planning on feeding it again. To an animal, this situation may very well mean the end of it's life. Why do people forget that dogs are animals?????!!!!! Anyone who thinks like this shouldn't own dogs. They don't understand them. Don't even understand the basics of or the right to self preservation.
I appreciate the input from Kady, Staci and the other "pitbull mind" people -- and where they're coming from, even though I don't necessarily always see the same issues through the same lens.
I love the fact that Tallulah has so much inborn bite inhibition, and it's that mindset that developed lines of dogs with it.
On the other hand, I've never danced around the fact that, to me, a bite isn't the end of the world, or necessarily that big of a deal when the facts of what caused it come to light (if they ever do). But on the other side of the spectrum, I do keep a breed that WILL bite -- fortunately, mine have been very correct in temperament and DON'T bite unless someone doesn't stop when they're told.
Kady's right -- a forum is about sharing different opinions and learning from each other. At least this one is. That's how we began and how we got where we are now.
People who have children and would take a chance at having a dog at that level of aggression around... yes I would say that they are not particularly sound minded.
I've seen dogs pushed MUCH FARTHER and not bit like this. I also would like to note that this wasn't a bite it was an attack. The dog keeps going even when Cesar desists. That's NOT normal.
I go back through my mind to all the dogs I've had. None ever bit anyone (for RG) and we took food away from them sometimes, I'm sure....for some reason or another. (don't remember specifically). Or took a bone from the dog. BUT...they must have learned somewhere that it wasn't going to be the end of the world, so....they just didn't bite. However, if they had been mistreated; yelled at, frightened, threatened, hit in the face, kicked in the ribs in relation/association to their food or bones, if they had once given a warning and someone had slammed them for it, cornered them... I'd bet money that any one of them could easily have behaved as that dog did. I guarantee you that dog has a history of being mistreated and has had punishing reactions to warnings and much milder RG displays. And now it's escalated to this point. Add CM to the mix and you've really got a damaged dog. That dog was mild to average compared to dogs I've seen and worked with. He tried not to bite, he put it off as best he could... but CM kept on intimidating, threatening and attacking him.
I put none ever bit anyone for RG because I had a child hood dog that bit a kid (pre-teen age). As it turned out, neighbors saw him tormenting my dog, who was in his own yard... with a stick...poking him, scaring him. That was the only time he ever bit anyone. He was a sweet dog. But he was being attacked as far as he knew. When are people going to get it that not all dogs (or any animal) have exactly the same tolerance level for s!!! like this? And not all dogs are genetically disposed to backing down and lying on their backs to be punching bags? It really p!sses me off how people expect dogs to be something they're not.
That is NOT aggression...not on the dog's part. That is a defensive reaction.
Yes it is. The dog is already so worked up... his survival instincts are in high gear. His physiological self, hormones etc are in full defense mode. This dog has been a punching bag no doubt and because Cesar paused for a moment was no reassurance that the attack was over. Cesar did pause several times and then went after the dog again. So, he learned that the assault wasn't over.
Why are you or your companions pushing dogs so hard?
Further, why do you believe that Cesar desists?
Punching and kicking. Hm.
I would have done a lot worse to that dog had it done that to me.
I had a very emotional response to the video. Imagining a child in the place of Cesar. A child that may very well be "posturing" over the dog or "provoking" the dog or "hitting" it on the neck. That kid would be attacked and maybe dead.
This dog did not give a warning bite. She bit, then Cesar backed off startled. Then the dog kept at him and delivered multiple blows and there were four puncture marks if you actually look closely at his hand. How can we perceive to know that bones weren't broken? Or that there wasn't muscle/tendon damage?
We tend to anthropomorphize and put dogs on a level that is the same as a human being. That is wrong IMO.
Cesar admitted he made a mistake. He knows he screwed up, that he was cocky or arrogant. That dog taught him a lesson.
The dog should only be kept alive if it is kept at a compound like Cesar's rehabilitation centre. Not in the generals public.
As for people saying they DO keep dogs like that in their homes around their children and that it is little risk... well I guess you'll only know when the dg finally dies and "well, he never attacked my kids". I wouldn't personally take a chance because my children are far more important then ANY dog out there.
He may still be posturing slightly but he is not continuing to try and touch her or come forward at her.
I push them to see if they will in fact act like THIS! I desensitize. Never been attacked. Not one time.
At no time did I see punching or kicking. I saw him kick the dog (not even hard) when the dog had latched on... or do you propose that he just stand there submissively while the dog is ripping his hand off.
I don't think I can continue in this argument. If people want to take a chance on dogs attacking them I don't particularly care. If you think this was an appropriate resposnse, fine. If you would tolerate this around an 18 month old baby, your insane.
I have given my opinion which is, last time I checked, the point of a forum.
You all think Cesar Milan is the devil fine. He is still a human being. HE didn't blame the dog, HE wasn't angry, HE didn't take revenge. Yet everyone on here is quick to call him a sadist and an abuser *eye roll here*.... then I am certainly a sadist and an abuser because that dog would have been taken out back and used as target practice.
Oh and sorry kady.... my iPad has autocorrect... lol
So you set your dogs up for failure? Fantastic!
But hey if the only way you know how to train is Me Caveman You Dog then by all means, enjoy.
Meanwhile, in the modern world...
A lot of a dog's reactions have to do with the person pushing them.
I've had dogs I got from the pound that had a history of guarding food . . . and I could reach IN their mouths and take stuff. Do I tell anyone else to do something like that? Oh HELL NO.
I'll never forget the look on Charley's face when he saw me grab Buffy after she'd scarfed up an unidentified something and I had my arm in her mouth past my wrist :rofl1: He never tried that
Would I do something like that with any dog? Absolutely NOT. If there is fear on either side of the equation you've got a monumental FAIL. It all has to come from a position of mutual trust.
Something Cesar doesn't seem to worry about -- he seems more interested in "respect" based on the dog fearing him . . . which isn't respect at all, just fear. And a fearful dog is the most dangerous kind.
And no, I'm not a trainer and will never claim to be. It's just a matter of having some common sense.
True dog lover... right there. Yup.
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