Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Dogdragoness, Sep 18, 2012.
The DOG was feeling threatened, though. And was saying so over and over again.
Honestly I'd have the dog put down.
Here that wouldn't fly in my house and me the dog and the .22 would be taking a nice long walk to the back of the property. But that's just me. I don't put up with aggression towards people in my house. I do own a Rottweiler that is protective, and a Cur that is shall we say has quirks. Hell Beau used to be VERY FA, but a few CTJM put an end to that.
Dogs that will bite more then once shouldn't be alive. It's not worth that risk. But I have a "Pit Bull" mind.
But that's just me and my opinion, seeing how I have an 8 year old nephew and a 2 day old nephew.
But I think the point is, how many of us realistically would have pushed the dog to the point of biting in that moment vs. finding a different way to address the RG other than staring down and physically intimidating the dog? IMO the bite was a direct result of the technique, not a foregone conclusion.
I don't know, I personally find RG a relatively easy problem to manage and address. It just seems like such an odd thing to euthanize a dog over to me.
This dog is not starting any of the confrontation. It's only reacting because there is this stranger getting all up in its face, staring a hole through her, looming over her and sticking his hands in her food dish. She's giving tons of signs to him to back the eff off. She averts her eyes. She growls. Licks her lips. Warning air snaps. He just keeps on and keeps on. Then puts his hand over her muzzle and then she bites.
If he would have stopped when she gave him appropriate warning signs instead of needing to prove he was alpha (or what other nonsense), he wouldn't have gotten bitten. It's because people keep pushing a dog past growling and air snapping (which are normal dog communication tools) that they end up biting. I know, that's how I've been bitten before. It's not Nikki's fault that I was ignoring every 'please stop' known to dog before I got bitten. He is teaching the dog that she needs to continue escalating because obviously her appeasement gestures aren't working.
I shouldn't have watched that. It got me angry.
For those saying they would PTS if this was there dog....if this was your dog I would say shame on you for causing it. THIS dog was pushed into becoming this defensive and biting.
And yes, I have PTS a resource guarder before.....and I kick myself all the time that I didnt deal with it the way I now know to. I pushed and fought him all the way and he ended up guarding way more than just food. He had other issues as well so it wasnt JUST the RG that made my mind up but still.....
Our Bedlington Terrier was a resource guarder on par with that dog. We had him 15 years, starting when I was 10. He had exactly one bite, and it was someone who didn't know him (he got a...used personal hygiene product...out of the trash can, and she tried to grab it back from him). One bite in 15 years. Because when he had something he was allowed to have, but guarded, we left him the heck alone. And when he got something he wasn't allowed to have, we traded him.
We probably could have trained it out of him if we'd known better. But we simply found an easy way we could all live with it, and everyone was fine. It isn't rocket science.
Would I have that dog in the house with a toddler? Probably not. But they had an infant, right? So a year or so in which they could have done the training before the kid was really mobile and it was going to be an issue. My friend took in a dog for evaluation from the humane society, because the dog was resource guarding. Darn if within about 3 weeks, that dog wasn't picking up everything she could find and carrying it to whichever person was closest, in hopes that they would please please offer to trade with her for a cookie. Shoes. Toys. Socks. Anything on the floor, she'd carry up to you, parade back and forth, shoving it in your lap and woo-wooing.
Again, not rocket science.
Treated like what? Pointing out reciprocating smugness in your tone as you indicate to Katy that she sounds smug? We learned the golden rule in grade school, yo.
As for this dog, I would never have let it get this far. But I doubt people call Cesar as a first option. Most likely, the owners had no idea how to deal with this behavior. Not everybody has two brain cells in their head when it comes to dogs. In a world where people put prong collars on baby puppies, it's not surprising that a dog acting as badly as this needs a televised expert.
I keep thinking of something that happened when I was in high school. There was this guy harassing me. At first I asked him nicely to 'please leave me alone'. He didn't and kept on. 'Go away'. He kept on. 'Get the **** away from me.' He didn't. So... I slugged him darn good and made him bleed. He finally left me alone.
I see this situation with the dog as similar. How many times does the dog have to say 'go away'? She tries nicely at first. Then a little more forcefully. Then eventually resorts to force.
I don't know how many people on this forum have children but I do . If a dog of mine did this to a human being it would be dead. Period.
I don't think anything that Katy said was smug. She was giving her opinion which is exactly what forums are specifically created for.
Thankfully some people are of sound mind enough to believe this^^
Not so much in another forum I was part of *cough*
Sorry, but I don't agree with "if a dog has food aggression, kill it". That sentiment seems like one of someone who is too lazy to rehabilitate the animal.
Are you suggesting that those who DON'T believe that aren't of sound mind?
Yes, if a dog I raised and worked with daily OUT OF THE BLUE reacted like this and bit, I would probably PTS. This is NOT the case though. This is a dog who bit AFTER being pushed into it and really not being left any option.
(honestly, for the poor dog's sake it would probably be better off PTS than to be living a life in fear)
Exactly. Does the fact that you slugged some guy make you a violent sociopath? Does it make you an unstable person, unfit to be in a public setting because you might snap at any moment? Does it mean you need to be locked up for the sake of keeping society safe? Of course not.
Same idea here.
When I watch the clip, I donâ€™t see a dog who is willing to bite. I see a dog who is is very reluctant to bite. A dog who tried every way she knew how NOT to bite. To me that makes for a very fixable problem.
If youâ€™d actually read what I wrote, youâ€™d know that
a) I do have children, we did take on a dog like this, and we did not PTS. In fact said dog is now a therapy dog. When I say this sort of thing is fixable, I mean it is *really* fixable.
b) I never said Katy was smug. I said â€œI donâ€™t know if you mean to, but it SOUNDS smug.â€
I wish people calling for these dogs to be PTS would put themselves in the shoes of folks like me who own and love these dogs. Its incredibly hurtful to repeatedly listen to â€œthe dog should be deadâ€ when said dog is right next to you snuggled up safely with two kids and a cat and clearly NOT better off dead.
To be clear, I have no problem with euthanasia for behavioral reasons, but when someone says â€œI have a former resource guarderâ€ or â€œI have a dog who has bittenâ€ and the next post says dogs like that need to be dead, its pretty insensitive. These are MY dogs weâ€™re talking about here folks, saying that in your opinion my dogs need to be dead is not something anyone wants to hear.
Yes, I see a big big big difference between a provoked bite and just random aggression.
Yep. You push any being long enough, they will defend themselves from a perceived threat.
And that. Honestly, I think it's absolutely CRAZY to expect a dog to just sit there and take what Cesar was doing to that dog without the dog reacting back.
I will go even farther. I would bet money if you put Mia in that situation, she would have bitten Cesar. I don't think she would have landed multiple bites or broken the skin like this dog, but I think she would have bitten. Would she bite me for doing the same thing? Not likely. But a stranger coming up and posturing over her then hitting her in the side, pursuing her, putting his hand on her muzzle, staring her down- she would at least probably have snapped at him. I would not expect any dog to tolerate that behavior. I know some would. Summer would- she'd be up in Cesar's face trying to give him kisses but she's an exceedingly friendly dog to a fault. Most dogs I've had would not have tolerated that behavior.
Someone on another forum put it quite succinctly.
I think if you can't handle fixing the problem sure putting the dog down is an option. But I think what makes Danefied upset is the idea 'that of course the dog should be put down' as if the dog will be a constant threat to those around them and those who keep them are housing a menace to society.
It is very fixable, and like things that are FIXable they stay fixed. A dog that was once a food guarder is no more likely to revert than a dog who has never been a food guarder. In fact less likely to become food guardy again due to the training.
I agree of all the behavioural issues out there its probably the easist to 'cure' the dog of.
The dog didn't react like that to some random person though. She reacted like that to a person whose job is to 1. make aggressive dogs behave aggressively so that he may punish them, so he would have pushed and pushed until he did get a reaction, and 2. Make dramatic TV by showing the dogs do insanely out of control things.
He does everything in his power to make dogs go after him. I would never ever use a dog's reaction to him as a true test of a dog's temperament.
I am pretty sure every JRT I have ever owned would have bitten him! I would put money that Sport would take his face off if he behaved that way (and this is a kids dog that is very reliable around people who are acting in non agressive ways. To the dog, kids can wrestle etc and he is fine) I think even the whippets would bite.
I would say IMO yes. If a dog who has food aggression (more accurate food guarding) behaviours that is 'normal' Ie not out of the blue rage type, as that indicates a larger problem. (Ie tumour etc)
Ok well maybe not always lazy, but not commited, not educated, etc. Its such an easy fix to kill a dog over. Yes that is a person's right but to assume its a good choice, or a first choice or more astounding (to me) an obvious choice to me is pretty horrifying.
I bet you at least Mia, Nikki, Trey, probably Rosie, and Shack would have all bitten him.
The idea that all dogs must be as passive as a dog like Summer is ridiculous to me.