CM gets bitten... again (vid included)

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Dogdragoness, Sep 18, 2012.

  1. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I know CM is a hot topic but i saw this on facebook & had to share it to get other's views on this subject of FA (food aggression):

    why do ppl insist on harassing their dogs when they are eating, as someone who has been bullied & their food stolen from them in the past, it isnt a good feeling believe me. :( i condition my dogs with treats & chewies/bones etc... but their food i leave them be, they are always fed in a place (crate/quite room away from everyone) where they cant be bothered.

    your thoughts?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM here is the link to the vid, hope it hasnt been taken down yet.
     
  2. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Did you read the comments? It's just amazing how stupid people are. In the video, when he said that the dog was relaxed...."see how relaxed he is?" (just before he got bitten)...I was thinking...he is not relaxed one bit. He's going to explode any time now. He was so threatened and defensive. You could read it all over his face. That man ought to be stopped. He's abusive as all hell. Further beating the dog up in relation to food. Great association to have the dog make: People come around food and all hell breaks loose. And I can't believe how stupid all these people are who think it's okay what he's doing to dogs.

    I have worked with numerous dogs with this kind of issue successfully and never got bitten doing it because I teach them that if I have to take something away from them, it's going to result in a very high value exchange. They may one day have something valuable to them that is unsafe, some poisonous thing they consider food or a dangerous, sharp thing. You want to be able to take away highly valued things and have the dog think that it's just fine and dandy if you do.

    These dogs that started out worried about losing their food would practically beg someone to come around their food because they got conditioned to having very good things happen when someone came near. I think it's a good thing to be able to come near a dog when it's eating if the dog is safe because there might always be a time when someone does. Of course, a dog should not be harassed when it's eating but it can be desensitized and conditioned to liking people coming near or even picking up the food bowl to put something much better into it.

    There are lots of techniques to do depending on the dog's degree and type of issue. With this dog, I would not be using a bowl at all for some time and would maintain possession of the food, hand feeding him in increments. That would be for starters. Then there are other steps to follow.

    That's what I've always started out doing with my dogs...picked up their bowl just once per meal say....and put in a hunk of Porterhouse steak braised with mushroom sauce lol... or chicken with their kibble. They welcomed me picking up their bowls when they were eating. They not only got them right back again in 2 seconds, but with something even better in it. All my dogs have always been safe with children or anyone coming near things of value, including their food.

    When a dog already has serious resource guarding issues, a behavior specialist ought to be called in to set up a very gradual conditioning plan.

    Contrary to what Milan insists, It's not about submitting to humans when it comes to survival. It is ridiculous that he thinks that. Even wolves who are omegas are not expected to tolerate a higher ranking wolf from taking their food. They just don't do that. And here we have dogs, the biddable dog who so easily can be shown that they won't lose their food if someone comes near it or even handles it. They can learn that it's a terrific win-win deal to have someone come near or touch their food.:)

    I just wish someone would shut that Cesar Milan down.
     
  3. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    All I can say is what a freaking idiot. I would not expect any less from a dog when its treated like that.
     
  4. momto8

    momto8 New Member

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    wow * shakes head *
     
  5. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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  6. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I'm seriously afraid to watch. It breaks my heart to see this creep abusing dogs. I wish people could see what is right in front of their faces. What is wrong with society that they accept this b.s. still?????
     
  7. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    I won't comment on anything else, but, Sako is the same way if he knows I'm mad at him. He won't completely roll like Junior did, but he does the slinky, low tail wagging, ears back stuff. He's just naturally super submissive, and sensitive. He's never been abused a day in his life (actually, he's been the most coddled of all of my dogs and gets away with more crap than the other two ever have).

    So, just saying that just because a dog does that doesn't automatically = OMGABUSE!
     
  8. crazedACD

    crazedACD Active Member

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  9. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Vintage CM. Set the dog up to fail then punish her for the mistake he knew she was going to make.
     
  10. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Meg used to 'over-react' to anything she saw as a correction - like Junior, but with more peeing. There was never any abuse in her life that I could tell - just a super soft dog. We've beefed up her confidence enough over the years that it isn't that bad anymore - but yeah, not always a sign that the dog has been treated badly.

    Having said that, the rest of the video...yeesh. It isn't that I wish harm on anyone, and boy that was a bad bite but...he didn't see it coming? As soon as he started to reach out to the dog (what the heck was he going to do? pet the muzzle?), I started to wince.
     
  11. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    I can't wrap my mind around his cult following, and why people defend him so loyally. I don't understand it.

    He's an idiot. And he's on TV.
     
  12. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Set her up to fail, let her fail, and then KEEP PRESSURE ON HER until her self control breaks down??

    He was crouching over her that entire time after she let up the growling/snarling and lay down on the ground. No idea what made him think it was okay to grab her on the muzzle.

    Don't blame the dog one bit.
     
  13. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    And you know what will happen most likely??? The owners will experience another blow-out from this poor dog because he won't ever be made safe with these tactics....and decide he must die. It's like conspiracy to commit murder. CM is the one who sets the dog up. The owners are the ones that make it happen.:mad::(

    He does all this to create drama. How boring would it be to have someone gradually condition the dog to thinking it's a good thing to touch his food? He's out for the TV schmoozola and the money. Sickening!!!!!!!:madgo:
     
  14. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    FYI: The dog wasn't returned back to its owners, she stayed with CM. Which IMO, wasn't a bad decision. A dog like that shouldn't be in a home with a toddler (the owners had an 18 month old kid).
     
  15. olliethemutt

    olliethemutt New Member

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    I was hoping she was going to launch herself at him while he was crouching over her....... I would have.
     
  16. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    It was pretty stupid but I probably would put down a dog that explosive or... you know just feed in a crate.

    Ill never understand the human desire to fondle dog chow
     
  17. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I have always "fondled" dog chow...so that an 18 month old won't get bitten if he touches the food. All my puppies have always been shown from day one that adults and children coming around, even touching their food were not a threat...would not steal their food....that in fact, they were something that brought security in the way of keeping and obtaining more and even better food. I'd have my little girl hand feed a new puppy and the kids in high chairs would drop food...like they do on the floor. The dog would learn that little kids bring food, they don't take it. When I would feed my dogs in the kitchen, there could well be a toddler crawling near them. I didn't have to worry. I watched, but there was never a feeling in my dogs that their food was not safe.

    When I first would get a puppy, I'd sit on the floor and hand feed them some of their food from the bowl. Then set it down and make it a pleasant time while they ate, even tossing in a little piece of cheese or something else very yummy. They were conditioned to never be nervous when someone was close to or touching their food.
     
  18. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Big difference between conditioning a dog from puppyhood to accept it, and taking a dog with a massive hang-up about the food bowl and trying to fondle its kibble.

    Every now and then I interrupt my dog while she's eating and go in, touch the food and add something good before i release her. She will call off of anything because of it. If I just walked up to her and started throwing my hand around in her dish while she was eating kibble? I'd kind of expect a little grumbling or teeth showing. I'd do the same **** thing if I was chowing down and someone started poking and messing with my food. Seriously.
     
  19. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    AWFUL. I cannot fathom how, when viewing this video, any of CM's cult followers could not question their blind faith. :eek: Anyone with any understanding of dog behavior would not grab a dog's muzzle who looked like that dog. She was whale eyed!

    I also love the fact that he chases the dog away from her food bowl, then she "submits". What have you accomplished with that? You've pressured her away from the resource. You have done nothing but chase a dog away, that's not solving any problems!!! Like always, he focuses on absolutely nothing except for the reaction... with zero regard for cause of behavior. It makes me lol to see him make stuff up as he goes along, rambling on with pseudo-scientific jargon that has no basis in actual animal behavior. Like, really? This man is rich off of this? He did do a super impressive ninja pose though. I think he should pursue his original career goal, acting. Oh wait he IS acting.

    I feel so bad for that dog. She looks absolutely miserable & terrified. I'm sure she could have stayed in her home if the owners utilized proper management, and freaking dropped some treats in the dogs bowl while passing by, instead of chasing her away from the bowl like psychotic ninjas! I had a dog just like this in my last group... by the end of the classes, she wagged her tail and looked up expectantly when anyone would walk up to her bowl while she ate. It's not hard. It just requires swallowing of pride and being accountable/responsible.

    I've noticed more & more cases where Cesar keeps the dogs... and it makes me wonder what really happens to all of those dogs. Do they stay there for life? And can you call a trainer who takes in so many dogs successful in any way? He RUINS dogs, to the point that only HE can handle them, and only by putting them in a highly controlled, supervised, suppressed state at all times.

    This episode made me extra sad, because I've seen the horrible outcome first hand. My friends adopted a very sweet, street dog a year ago. He was super friendly and eager to please... a great little dog! His only issue (from living on the streets) was a little bit of food guarding. Instead of trading and desensitizing, they utilized Cesar's Way. They alpha rolled, choked out, and intimidated that poor dog and he bit them dozens and dozens of times. Now he lives in a crate 99% of the time - by choice, because he's constantly terrified - and has bitten every person he's met. If you hold out your open hand to offer him a treat, he'll snatch up the treat and attack your hand!!! He resource guards infinitely worse now than he used to.
     
  20. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    That’s debatable. Resource guarding is a very normal dog behavior, and its also a very fixable behavior in most cases. And while its being fixed its also very manageable. Especially if the guarding is limited to food.

    IMO, for whatever that’s worth, I don’t think Holly really wanted to bite Cesar. I think she tried incredibly hard NOT to bite Cesar. Air snaps are not “missed†bites, if she had wanted to tag him right before his ninja pose thing, she would have, but she chose to warn him with an air snap instead. And that was only after giving him TONS of signals telling him to pretty please back off you’re making me really nervous.

    Granted, once he pushed her in to the bite, she will have a lowered bite threshold. But what I saw was a dog trying very hard to NOT bite which to me makes for much easier rehabilitation.

    We have a former guarder who had every reason to mistrust humans. Despite his history and his shelter eval, he is by nature a very stable dog. Once he learned to trust us, and once he learned that his signals would be heeded, he has turned in to a solid, trustworthy dog. To the point that my kids do feed him, they can, if they need to, take things away from him. He can lay next to them on the sofa while they have a bowl of popcorn and no issues. Not with them or the other dogs approaching. He’s now a perfectly safe family dog.

    So no. I don’t agree that “a dog like that†can never be safe in a home with kids. I totally understand if someone does not want to risk it, but I do feel that most simple food guarding issues are very manageable and fixable and I certainly wouldn’t tell someone to get rid of their dog just because they have kids and the dog is guardy around food.
     

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