CKC and the JRT question

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by AGonzalez, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Ok so I read about Dekka saying none of her dogs were registered with the CKC. So I looked it up on the link she provided, and another one.

    Canadian Breeds Recognized Under the Animal Pedigree Act

    Breeds list for the Canadian Animal Pedigree Act - Jack Russel not mentioned...ok.

    Jack Russell Terrier, Parson Russell Terrier - Canada's Guide to Dogs - Breeds

    This site says they are recognized as the Parson Russell Terrier with the CKC...however, they aren't mentioned in the Animal Pedigree Act. This is current as of September 2008.

    Breeds and Abbreviations

    Not mentioned under "terrier" breeds but is mentioned at the very bottom being a "working" breed as of an effective date of September 1, 2006.

    So for all of you JRT folks. How do you sell puppies as "purebred" if they aren't recognized by the Animal Pedigree Act?
    I really researched this looking for a cut and dry answer prior to asking on here, but the breed clubs I found don't seem to be covered under the Breed Associations Incorporated by the Animal Pedigree Act that you have in Canada. So, how do you do it?
     
  2. MericoX

    MericoX Roos, Poos, & a Wog!

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    Just because a breed isnt' on some list, doesn't mean they aren't purebred. Most breeds that are recognized have gone to crap compared to their working cousins.

    And to post about a long-standing member not breeding purebreds, when people have seen her dogs, is just down-right distasteful.
     
  3. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    I didn't say that, I'm asking a simple question. No harm intended and not distasteful.
    Where they stated that it is ILLEGAL to sell a dog as purebred under that act without the registration papers, I'd love to know what registration papers count? As far as the link that was given I didn't find the info I'm looking for, so I'm asking.

    It was directed to the JRT folks, nobody specifically. The only mention of someone specifically was that they were the person who said it and I want to know how it works, so excuse me for asking a question.

    I don't see anywhere that I questioned the "purebred" status of ANYONES dog, you misinterpreted that. I didn't say "Hey LauraLeigh, Ado, Dekka (and anyone else I missed here, forgive me) Your dogs are just mutts" and I would never implicate that.
    I asked how you sell a breed that's not listed on the government website under that act as a purebred?
     
  4. Yikes Mer. :eek:

    I only saw a question being asked, she was referencing a thread that Dekka had mentioned the CKC in. She never said anything about Dekka's dogs not being pure-bred, or anything bad about Dekka at all. She was simply asking a question, and posed it to all JRT folks.

    Remind me not to ask questions. :yikes:
     
  5. Snip

    Snip Banned

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    The Canadian Animal Pedigree Act has a lot of issues for certain types of animals. In the case of the JRT vs the PRT, because the breed definitions are similar, if either group went to the APA and asked for inclusion, it could create various scenarios.

    One could be that the APA group could rule that the two breeds are similar enough (especially looking at the history/origins) that they could force the two registries together, something neither group wants. The issue with that then becomes this...if they decide that it should fall under CKC for registration, the working group (the JRT's) would be upset because there aren't nearly as many venues, nor competitions of the type they enjoy allowed under current CKC rules.

    Also, the current JRTCC registration (of which our dogs are a part of) does not allow a dog to be registered until they are one year of age, and they have to apply....registration is only granted to those dogs meeting breed standards. If they fall outside of breed standards for whatever reasons, they can only be registered as a spay/neuter dog, still eligible for most of the competitions (except for certain conformation classes.) The main advantage with this setup is that the dogs that are better suited for breeding (in that they are maintaining breed standard desired traits) are the ones that are papered.

    PRT use the same type of registration as KC, if they are born to papered parents, they are automatically papered. The dog could be 2" outside of the standard in height, doesn't matter.

    A majority of breeding/working terriers in the JRTCC are also dual registered with the JRTCA, and it's a very similar process for their registration system as ours.

    The other advantage to a system like we use with the JRTCC is certain classes. A conformation class that we have is called the Bronze medallion class. In order to enter, the dog must have worked 3 different types of quarry in the field, under the supervision of a judge, they then receive their Bronze Medallion. Once this is earned, they can enter that particular conformation class. The dogs winning this class are known then to be excellent working AND conformation dogs. (Just an interesting sidenote, there is a rule stating dogs with scars or injuries from working in the field are not to be penalized in the placings for ANY classes.)

    Since you seem concerned with why NONE of our dogs are registered CKC, the remainder of our dogs are the longhaired whippets (see LWHA) which at this point in time have their own registry. Even though genetically it's been proven the long hair is a recessive gene, they aren't recognized by the breed standard for whippets according to any of the KC's, so they are doing their own registration as well. I'm not positive, but I believe that the LWHA registration covers all dogs in North America, not just Canada or the US.

    Last but not least we have Sport, our son's Border Collie. He was a rescue that we adopted, and there is no knowledge of what his breeding is, who his breeders were or anything. Again, since he will be a companion dog, and agility dog for our son, makes no difference, because the events that he will be playing in don't require them anyway.

    Answer your question Acamp??
     
  6. blackmaskrott

    blackmaskrott New Member

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    Mer, not to start any kind of fight, but in Canada it is unlawful to sell a dog/puppy as "purebred" if it is not registered with the CKC (Candian Kennel Club), or at the very least, able to be registered with the CKC. This is the "Animal Pedigree Act" that Camp is talking about. There is actually pretty heafty fines if it is found that you are in violation of this Act.

    From what I am understanding from Camp's post, anyone selling JRT's in Canada can not sell and/or advertise their dogs/puppies as "purebred" legally, because the JRT breed is not recognized by the CKC, therefore they can not legally claim them to be "purebred" even if they are.

    I did not take Camp's post as her calling anyone out or putting anyone down. I read it as just an inquiry for information.
     
  7. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Yes it does and doesn't, that's what I was looking for. I wasn't "concerned" why none of your dogs were registered with CKC (I knew about the whippets and read up on that one, couldn't find the info on the JRT) I was asking in general because it confused me. I only used Dekka's comment because it was the first I've heard of that in particular and was under the assumption that the CKC was the only "allowed" registering body by the animal pedigree act, as I could find no other information to indicate otherwise.
    So the JRT club you are affiliated with, when you sell puppies with their registration it counts under that act? Just trying to clarify this. I'd love if Ado or Laura would chime in on this as well as it's rather confusing as to how it works.
     
  8. Snip

    Snip Banned

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    Oh, and I forgot to mention, since myself and a couple other members of the JRTCC were in discussions with David Trus for some time, feel free to ask him. He knows exactly how our club and registration system works, and has a lot of respect for it.


    David Trus
    Animal Industry Division
    Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada
    1341 Baseline Road
    Tower 5, Floor 2 Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0C5

    Thing is, our 'purebred' JRT's aren't sold with papers, they have to EARN them, something many dogs in kennel clubs could never do these days!!
     
  9. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    The more I learn about the JRTCA/CC, the more I wish more parent registries worked like that!
     
  10. Snip

    Snip Banned

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    As far as I know, none of the JRTCC breeders call their dogs 'purebred' anyway, they simply state the breeding parents are registered with the JRTCC.

    Dogs that are spayed or neutered are 'recorded' versus registered, recorded means there is a still a record of the bloodlines etc, but those dogs can never be bred of course. They are eligible for all the same competitions, classes and rewards the registered dogs are.

    Technically right now, Parson Russells also cannot be sold as 'purebred' because they also are not listed under the animal pedigree act.

    One of the issues with the APA is the fact that it is geared more to livestock then canines and the like. Officially, anyone breeding any papered animal....birds, cats, dogs, etc, could fall under the APA regulations. Unfortunately, as was told to us by the Ministry of Agriculture and Food, there isn't the flexibility in the current law to accommodate some of the things it needs to.
     
  11. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    There are other organizations on that list that the APA recognizes for dogs... including the CBCA for BCs..

    I've always taken it to be if you sell a animal off their list as a purebred without appropriate papers and call it a purebred it's a violation. If you have a breed they don't recognize.. it's not governed by them. There's a lot more breeds than the CKC will likely ever recognize. And a lot more breed clubs that may want anything but that recognition. Not just the jrt people.
     
  12. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Thanks MP, you hit the nail on the head with that. I was just curious how it worked, I'm from the US, we don't have that kind of law. I didn't know if there were other governing bodies that counted toward "registration" and that the website hadn't been updated sinec Sept 2008...a lot can happen in 6 months.
    Thanks for clarifying.
     
  13. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    No idea if I'm correct hun. I've just always taken it that way for breeds that aren't listed.
     
  14. Snip

    Snip Banned

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    Lots of groups are recognized by the APA. Breed Associations Incorporated Under The Animal Pedigree Act

    However, if you look at the link, you'll notice it states 'redmeat' as part of it....last I checked, no-one eats dog in these here parts....

    If you look at Border Collies, they are their own group, outside of the Kennel Club. They are currently hosting their own registry, and are geared more towards the working dogs from what I understand.

    When we sell puppies, they have NO papers. JRT's cannot be 'papered' until a minimum of one year of age. Owners are told that if they wish their dog to be papered, they will have to apply at that time. One of the things we personally will do is to help an owner do the paperwork etc when the dog reaches a year if they desire to register or record their dog. The dog is never called or considered 'purebred' either...we simply call them registered or recorded. It's been like that as long as I've dealt with the JRTCC, (approximately 10 years now?) so I don't know if that is a result of the APA or not, no idea.

    The way that we look at it, the papers keep track of who is descended from who...but if they can't go out and work the quarry, or do a **** good job at something, why should that dog be bred anyway? I think all of the breeders I know require a dog to have hunted before they will consider breeding it, it's not a rule or requirement, just something that the breeders do. (I'm sure there are exceptions to this, just none that come to mind, or that I know of off the top of my head.)
     
  15. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    I noticed horses are mentioned under red-meat...Canadians don't eat horse do they? Sorry but that's off topic...

    Thanks for answering, it makes sense now. No wonder when it was said "This is Canada not the US" you guys mean it, things are different by far...but I still like your beer!
     
  16. Snip

    Snip Banned

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    Horses? Not around here, but there used to be areas that they do eat horse. There may still be, I'm not sure.

    My understanding with the APA is that it was designed for livestock, but due to some loopholes and gaps, the wording covers basically all animals. And, as mentioned earlier, not all of them fit into that 'neat little mold' that laws are designed for.

    Canadian Beer.....now that should be registered....the higher alcohol contents can be dangerous. :lol-sign: I'd have to check, but I think a lot of our 'lite' beers are similar for alcohol content as a lot of the american stuff. :D:D

    Personally, I'm a rum fan anyway, but as I understand it, the really 'good' beer tends to be European or micro brewed in a lot of cases.
     
  17. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Ah the APA, boy did we fight that one years ago when I was on the BOD for the JRTCC and also very involved in the JRTCA.

    Basically it boils down to this, the APA governs what is considered to be a 'purebred' in Canada and is the stepping stone to getting a breed recogonized in CKC.
    Years ago, the CJRTA wanted the JRT to get into CKC, the same as they had in AKC, but to do that they needed numbers and they need to hold the majority of breeders representing the JRT, which they didn't have. The JRTCC had the majority and we didn't want them to get in.
    It was seriously considered, but we wouldn't be able to control what happened with the breed after the fact because although we could write the breed standard it still meant that dogs would be registered just because they came from reg'd parents etc. The other problem was once we got in, the registry had to be opened up and anyone regardless of which club they were from could get on the BOD etc. But our main problem was the JRTCA which is the mother club to the JRTCC and the grandmother club is the JRTGB (U.K), they made it absolutely clear that if we sought the APA for the JRT up here, that they would not honor reciprocity, therefore our members would not be able to have duel reg'd dogs with the JRTCA or compete in their trials and Nationals. Considering that the serious breeders and exhibitors within the JRTCC are also members of the JRTCA to compete at their trials etc, it was a huge problem.
    And it isn't a concern to the JRTCA/CC breeders about calling our dogs 'purebred', because we view our breed as a type of terrier with a broad standard. Now that doesn't mean the standard isn't restrict but compared to kennel club it is. In APA/kennel club we would have had to consider splitting the breed into different sizes and coat types i.e wired or mini etc.

    And here is the kicker, according to the APA once an animal (horse, dog, pig, etc) has a seven year recorded and offical pedigree it is considered to be a 'purebred'. lol So by those words all the JRTCA/JRTCC/JRTGB reg'd terriers would be 'purebred' because it was dogs that were reg'd with the JRTCA that was the foundation for them getting into the AKC. Which they now call Parsons. As a further note, the JRTCC owned the copyright to the name Parsons in Canada..............because that is what our dogs were known by.....go figure. Now the PRT fanciers would like everyone to believe that our dogs are the mutts and that they are the shorties/puds, which they are not........they are the complete opposite and they are the foundation that is the REAL Jack Russell Terrier and its members are to Preserve, Protect and Work them.
    It has been a few years since I have had to know all this stuff and it makes me shudder to remember all the BS over it, all the meetings in person and in converance calls with the David and our lawyers. Good grief and all the excellent members especially the working terriermen and women that left the club because of it in the end, myself included.

    The new BOD of the JRTCC is working very hard to bring the club back to even something close to what it was. We use to have a decent club, but the damage is done, many of the working folks wont come back. They are trying to lure me back, guess I am going to judge for them in June, which should be fun to get back into it for a little bit..........and at least give them a chance. We'll see..............
     
  18. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  19. LauraLeigh

    LauraLeigh New Member

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    Good question and honestly after 10 plus years of studying this breed some of the technical crap about KC I still don't get.. LOL Likely because I never got involved in it if I could avoid it at all....

    I actually never considered/ or said my dogs were purebred, but did call them registered and a type, which is what they are... LOL

    All of mine were dual registered with JRTCA/CC and I as well as Ado spent an average of 2 weekends a summer traveling and trialing all over the US and Canada for several years, and the political aspect of KC for the Jack/Parson never goes away. There are top breeders whom are rumored to have their dogs quietly registered with the KC stateside and others whom are appalled by it.

    I am personally no fond of KC and all it stands for, and love to explain to anyone who wants to listen just how the JRTCA/CC registries work and how your dogs need to prove the meet standard and be vet checked in order to get registered!

    One of my Pet Peeves is when people think that JRT= Short Legged Puddin Type Dogs and PRT= Correct "Proper" Terrier... LOL You should see the confusion on their face when I tell them about one of my Favorite JRTs, how he is a Registered JRTCA/CC Champion and his Dad is now and CKC Registered "Parson Russell"... And ask where they think all those Parson Russell's came from??? LOL

    Anyhow, it is like 4 am.... and I got up because one of the gang had to pee and I could not get right back to sleep... so forgive me it this rambles, or does not answer your question...

    The short answer for me, I never worried about it, because I promoted my dogs as JRTCA/CC Registered JRTS and called them a type. When directly asked if they were purebred I explained what type was and about the JRTCA/CC Registry.

    ***Yawn*** back to bed now... LOL
     
  20. LauraLeigh

    LauraLeigh New Member

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    See I should have read the thread before replying, I never learned all the intimate details because I just asked Lynn if I had a question... LOL

    I became turned off and left the club and ultimately stopped breeding as well after a Nasty GM at Nationals one year, where I watched two of the best working terrier men I know be attacked for their beliefs. One whom I consider the most reputable man whom ever held a spade.... Most of the experience I have working my terriers came at the hands of these two men and I was appalled by what happened that night and have never forgotten it.
     

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