Ceasar the dog whisperer

oriondw

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#21
If the dog is out of control and think its running the house, then it should be shown its place. With non-violent methods ofcourse.

If the dog is extremely submissive, then trainer should build up its confidence to a higher level.

Dog should be on a level where it doesnt think he runs the place, but still thinks that he has the ability to do anything and learn anything :)
 

krisykris

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#22
If the dog is out of control and think its running the house, then it should be shown its place. With non-violent methods ofcourse.

If the dog is extremely submissive, then trainer should build up its confidence to a higher level.

Dog should be on a level where it doesnt think he runs the place, but still thinks that he has the ability to do anything and learn anything :)
Right, I think there's a happy medium.
 

Herschel

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#23
I don't feel the need to defend myself on this one. I happen to think Cesar does a lot of good for a lot of people and their pets. It's my opinion and I don't have to back it up.

A lot of the dogs he works with ARE already insecure and fearful and I've seen him REALLY HELP them. Doesn't seem cruel to me.
I know that my post sounded accusatory, but I was honestly just wondering. Sorry if you felt that you had to defend yourself!
 

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#24
I have to say that this past week over the holiday I was at my in-laws where there were two other dogs in the house. One was a cocker/poodle mix and totally ran the roost. It was ridiculous how they let her do whatever she wanted and really annoyed everyone there. When they first came we were already there with our pretty well-behaved adult dog. The mix barked and barked forever at our dog, with the owner coddling it saying "it is okay" and "she will get used to him".
The owner went outside for a little while and I simply walked over to the dog in a confident manner and made a small noise to get her attention with a finger point at her and she stopped barking. She looked shocked that someone was Telling her what to do and not Asking her. I believe she is very unstable with low-self esteem, very scared so she barks loudly. Whenever my dog approached her she ran off with her tail between her legs.
Just my experience with something I learned with caesar. No, I do not agree with everything he does, but in this case, it worked. Now, if I could only train the owners!
 

Doberluv

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#25
Krisykris, of course you have a right to your opinion and I respect that you see what you do and from what you've seen, come up with your opinion. From your frame of reference, it looks good, looks like these dogs are truly rehabilitated. And some in fact are. Some, it has been reported regress badly somewhere down the road.

What I'd like to offer you is a look at what people think who have studied dogs for years, not only in the wild, but in captivity, what behaviorists see...their frame of reference. It is much larger I believe because they've been in the field for a very long time and their whole life is about observing, studying, doing tests, including brain studies, hormonal comparrisons, the whole bit. They understand very well dogs' body language and how they interact with one another. Their entire life work is about learning dog behavior. They train, they experiment, they observe. They have advanced degrees in behaviorism and ethology. They rehabilitate aggressive dogs too and very successfully. There is more to it than Cesar Milan demonstrates...a lot more to it. For instance, he uses positive punishment (that is....adding punishment) to dogs who have OCD. (obsessive compulsive disorder) I've seen him give collar corrections to dogs obsessed with chasing shadows or lights and give them that, "cheh" and step toward them, intimidating them to stop. OCD is a medical condition. Neurotransmitters and receptors are out of whack. Can you imagine using punishment on someone who is doing something on account of a neurological malfunction?

Please read the following, the link and the other thing, and see what you think. Even if you don't agree, it's still educational and interesting.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.

Here are my qualifications for talking about Cesar Millan’s methods: I have watched several episodes of his show, and I read the interview in the Times last Sunday. Some fan of his is going to post and say I’m insufficiently familiar with the man’s oeuvre, but sorry, I didn’t have to eat the whole salad to know that large parts of it were very, very bad.

Here are the things I do like: Yes, it’s important for dogs to get adequate exercise—most of them don’t. Yes, the suburban backyard is a jail cell for a dog. Yes, it’s good to act calm around a fearful dog. And yes, everyone living in a household has to know what the rules are for that household, and that includes the dogs.

Also, the one really good thing Millan does, as someone who works with dog behavior on TV, is get across the message that behavior can be changed. I cringe when a client asks me about Millan’s methods, but maybe that client wouldn’t have called a behavior counselor if he hadn’t seen CM on TV.

But that’s it. Apart from what I’ve cited above, Millan, as a behavior expert, seems to be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

That Times interview. Does Millan know that dogs probably evolved as semi-solitary scavengers in the vicinity of human settlements? “In the natural dog world, the dog is always behind the pack leader.” Oh pull-eaze! The closest thing to the “natural dog world” today, if prevailing scientific theory is correct, is probably a Third World village, and you can see for yourself in any such place that the dogs travel kinda sorta together but often alone, in a very loose way, basically focusing on whatever piece of garbage they can find to eat. I don’t know where he got that “90 miles a day” thing, either. These are skinny dogs hanging around the dump, or the tourist restaurant; it would be astonishing if they traveled 20 miles a day, let alone 90. To what purpose? They can’t afford that kind of energy expenditure, for pete’s sake.

And am I really supposed to believe that when my dogs and I are taking the same boring last-pee-before-bedtime walk around the block that we take every single night, and they walk ahead of me, it’s because they’re staging a palace coup, not because they … um … know exactly where we’re all going? We’re on a country hike, my dog-who-loves-to-swim realizes we’re getting near the creek and pelts ahead of me to jump in. Whoops, was that my pack leadership going by? Or was he just excited about getting in the water?

Science isn’t the only thing missing here—a little common sense might come in handy too.

As for the TV show—I’ll just talk about one episode: the Great Dane afraid of shiny floors. Yes, Millan succeeded in getting the dog to walk tractably on shiny linoleum floors, and he did it by inducing what’s called learned helplessness. He dragged the dog onto the linoleum and kept him there. The dog's efforts to escape did not work, and the dog gave up. That is learned helplessness. It’s not the same thing as being comfortable and relaxed. At the end, the Dane’s tail is down, his head is down, and he is drooling profusely. For those who have eyes to see, he’s a picture of fear and misery.

Sadly, his guardian had had the right idea: she was laying down carpet runner for the dog to walk on. I would have started exactly the same way, and when he was comfortable walking down the hall, left a little gap of linoleum, small enough so he could step over it. And slowly the gap would have grown. I would have put Musher’s Wax on the dog’s paws so as to be sure he had traction: remember, he was afraid of shiny floors because he’d taken a bad spill on one. The hallway would be a place of fun with his guardian and chicken treats.

I’m sure this would have taken longer than Millan’s method, but at the end the dog would have been walking happily and confidently, not hanging his head and drooling.

And that’s the trouble with Cesar Millan. He’s got a hammer—the dominance idea—and he thinks everything he sees is a nail. He’s constantly forcing what needs to be gentled along. And it’s all very well overpowering dogs when you work out every day and have a Y chromosome on board, but what is my five-foot female client with two little kids supposed to do? What about the elderly man with a brand-new hip? What if you are a man who works out every day but you don’t enjoy physical confrontation as a way of life? What are you supposed to do then?

Call a clicker trainer.
 
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#26
Well firstly, I have never been to a training class so I can't comment on other people's methods. I think that he has a lot of good points. I think him talking about the humans being calm and assertive is a GREAT thing. I also think that his methods are not that bad. To be honest I've seen some situations which made me uncomfortable but mostly because the dog was SO out of control.
This is exactly why Cesar is so dangerous. Many people like yourself (this is NOT a criticism towards you kris), who have no understanding of canine behavior and have no knowledge of other methods WILL follow Cesar and think he's terrific.

Many of us (experienced, educated and certified trainers) handle these "RED ZONE":rolleyes: as Cesar likes to dramatically refer to them, cases on a daily basis. We work with them very successfully without ever putting a hand on them. What Cesar does with his lack of education is totally unnecessary. He, at times, talks a good game but to an even moderatelly trained eye, he's a joke.

I was at a case on Boxing Day...one that Cesar would refer to as "red zone" and aside from a resource guarding test where I had to touch the cheek (gently) of this dog with an assess-a-hand, I never touched the dog at all.
If Cesar would have been there and used his typical pushy, ridiculous methods for this type of case, he would have been badly bitten, the family would be in big trouble, and the dog likely PTS at a later date. With proper understanding of what is actually going on and how to manage THEN correct this dogs behavior issues, this dog will be a predictable loved and loving family member. I follow up on EVERY case long after the problem is "solved", does Cesar???

A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.
 

krisykris

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#27
This is exactly why Cesar is so dangerous. Many people like yourself (this is NOT a criticism towards you kris), who have no understanding of canine behavior and have no knowledge of other methods WILL follow Cesar and think he's terrific.

Many of us (experienced, educated and certified trainers) handle these "RED ZONE":rolleyes: as Cesar likes to dramatically refer to them, cases on a daily basis. We work with them very successfully without ever putting a hand on them. What Cesar does with his lack of education is totally unnecessary. He, at times, talks a good game but to an even moderatelly trained eye, he's a joke.

I was at a case on Boxing Day...one that Cesar would refer to as "red zone" and aside from a resource guarding test where I had to touch the cheek (gently) of this dog with an assess-a-hand, I never touched the dog at all.
If Cesar would have been there and used his typical pushy, ridiculous methods for this type of case, he would have been badly bitten, the family would be in big trouble, and the dog likely PTS at a later date. With proper understanding of what is actually going on and how to manage THEN correct this dogs behavior issues, this dog will be a predictable loved and loving family member. I follow up on EVERY case long after the problem is "solved", does Cesar???

A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.
I never used a choke chain, nor would I ever. I used a show leash for a few practice sessions with Bentley to see if it would help him stay focused. It didn't and I left it by the wayside. I've never actually seen him use a choke chain on a small dog.

I truly understand that I have no experience in dog training nor have I studied it in depth. I think that some of Cesar's methods make sense to me though, regardless of if they apply to me.
 

krisykris

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#28
Krisykris, of course you have a right to your opinion and I respect that you see what you do and from what you've seen, come up with your opinion. From your frame of reference, it looks good, looks like these dogs are truly rehabilitated. And some in fact are. Some, it has been reported regress badly somewhere down the road.

What I'd like to offer you is a look at what people think who have studied dogs for years, not only in the wild, but in captivity, what behaviorists see...their frame of reference. It is much larger I believe because they've been in the field for a very long time and their whole life is about observing, studying, doing tests, including brain studies, hormonal comparrisons, the whole bit. They understand very well dogs' body language and how they interact with one another. Their entire life work is about learning dog behavior. They train, they experiment, they observe. They have advanced degrees in behaviorism and ethology. They rehabilitate aggressive dogs too and very successfully. There is more to it than Cesar Milan demonstrates...a lot more to it. For instance, he uses positive punishment (that is....adding punishment) to dogs who have OCD. (obsessive compulsive disorder) I've seen him give collar corrections to dogs obsessed with chasing shadows or lights and give them that, "cheh" and step toward them, intimidating them to stop. OCD is a medical condition. Neurotransmitters and receptors are out of whack. Can you imagine using punishment on someone who is doing something on account of a neurological malfunction?

Please read the following, the link and the other thing, and see what you think. Even if you don't agree, it's still educational and interesting.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.

Here are my qualifications for talking about Cesar Millan’s methods: I have watched several episodes of his show, and I read the interview in the Times last Sunday. Some fan of his is going to post and say I’m insufficiently familiar with the man’s oeuvre, but sorry, I didn’t have to eat the whole salad to know that large parts of it were very, very bad.

Here are the things I do like: Yes, it’s important for dogs to get adequate exercise—most of them don’t. Yes, the suburban backyard is a jail cell for a dog. Yes, it’s good to act calm around a fearful dog. And yes, everyone living in a household has to know what the rules are for that household, and that includes the dogs.

Also, the one really good thing Millan does, as someone who works with dog behavior on TV, is get across the message that behavior can be changed. I cringe when a client asks me about Millan’s methods, but maybe that client wouldn’t have called a behavior counselor if he hadn’t seen CM on TV.

But that’s it. Apart from what I’ve cited above, Millan, as a behavior expert, seems to be a member of the Flat Earth Society.

That Times interview. Does Millan know that dogs probably evolved as semi-solitary scavengers in the vicinity of human settlements? “In the natural dog world, the dog is always behind the pack leader.” Oh pull-eaze! The closest thing to the “natural dog world” today, if prevailing scientific theory is correct, is probably a Third World village, and you can see for yourself in any such place that the dogs travel kinda sorta together but often alone, in a very loose way, basically focusing on whatever piece of garbage they can find to eat. I don’t know where he got that “90 miles a day” thing, either. These are skinny dogs hanging around the dump, or the tourist restaurant; it would be astonishing if they traveled 20 miles a day, let alone 90. To what purpose? They can’t afford that kind of energy expenditure, for pete’s sake.

And am I really supposed to believe that when my dogs and I are taking the same boring last-pee-before-bedtime walk around the block that we take every single night, and they walk ahead of me, it’s because they’re staging a palace coup, not because they … um … know exactly where we’re all going? We’re on a country hike, my dog-who-loves-to-swim realizes we’re getting near the creek and pelts ahead of me to jump in. Whoops, was that my pack leadership going by? Or was he just excited about getting in the water?

Science isn’t the only thing missing here—a little common sense might come in handy too.

As for the TV show—I’ll just talk about one episode: the Great Dane afraid of shiny floors. Yes, Millan succeeded in getting the dog to walk tractably on shiny linoleum floors, and he did it by inducing what’s called learned helplessness. He dragged the dog onto the linoleum and kept him there. The dog's efforts to escape did not work, and the dog gave up. That is learned helplessness. It’s not the same thing as being comfortable and relaxed. At the end, the Dane’s tail is down, his head is down, and he is drooling profusely. For those who have eyes to see, he’s a picture of fear and misery.

Sadly, his guardian had had the right idea: she was laying down carpet runner for the dog to walk on. I would have started exactly the same way, and when he was comfortable walking down the hall, left a little gap of linoleum, small enough so he could step over it. And slowly the gap would have grown. I would have put Musher’s Wax on the dog’s paws so as to be sure he had traction: remember, he was afraid of shiny floors because he’d taken a bad spill on one. The hallway would be a place of fun with his guardian and chicken treats.

I’m sure this would have taken longer than Millan’s method, but at the end the dog would have been walking happily and confidently, not hanging his head and drooling.

And that’s the trouble with Cesar Millan. He’s got a hammer—the dominance idea—and he thinks everything he sees is a nail. He’s constantly forcing what needs to be gentled along. And it’s all very well overpowering dogs when you work out every day and have a Y chromosome on board, but what is my five-foot female client with two little kids supposed to do? What about the elderly man with a brand-new hip? What if you are a man who works out every day but you don’t enjoy physical confrontation as a way of life? What are you supposed to do then?

Call a clicker trainer.
Thank you for the article, it was interesting =)
 
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#30
I never used a choke chain, nor would I ever. I used a show leash for a few practice sessions with Bentley to see if it would help him stay focused. It didn't and I left it by the wayside. I've never actually seen him use a choke chain on a small dog.

I truly understand that I have no experience in dog training nor have I studied it in depth. I think that some of Cesar's methods make sense to me though, regardless of if they apply to me.

The show leash works almost the same way as a choke chain. It's not meant for walking your dog but rather to practice for show. That is what I was referring to and I was not trying to make you feel bad. I just remembered the thread that you talked about this and that your dog/s were really straining against it. I may have made the leap due to your LOVE of his book and strong recommendations for it. I think that was you, if it wasn't...I really do apologize.

Cesar does use a choke chains, choke strings, show leads....he always makes a point in minimizing their danger by saying that they're used in show. His collar of choice is one that will make a dogs tongue turn blue so he can look like a big hero when they submit due to lack of oxygen. Choking devises of any kind are not appropriate for any dog but he does use them on almost EVERY dog he gets his hands on. He even talks about how to make your own (both on his show and in his book) for .10 cents with some string or twine.:mad:
 

Road dog

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#31
Preach on, Doberluv!

When my GSD hit that "rebellious teenager" stage, I had a dog that Ceasar would have killed. Yes, maybe she would bolt after a rabbit, or ignore a command in favor of something considerably more entertaining, but she was NOT displaying alpha tendancies, she was displaying youthful exhuberance.

She is and always has been a very gentle dog, and she would lower her head in fear if I so much as raised my voice too loudly to her. She was NOT being bossy, she was a bouncy little girl who needed GENTLE GUIDANCE. Milan jerking her about on the end of a choke chain would have broken her spirit to pieces and completely shut her down. I'd no longer have a dog, just the skin a dog used to be in.

The man is a quack, and if I were ever to pass him on the street he would not be allowed to so much as touch my dogs.
 
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#33
I find h im highly entertaining.
Sorry, but I find very little entertainment in watching a dog struggle and flail at the end of a choke chain or in dogs forced into situations that make them freeze out of sheer terror. All of these posts validating this guys obvious abuse and lack of knowledge just really make me worry about his influence even more.:mad:
 

Doberluv

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#34
When my GSD hit that "rebellious teenager" stage, I had a dog that Ceasar would have killed. Yes, maybe she would bolt after a rabbit, or ignore a command in favor of something considerably more entertaining, but she was NOT displaying alpha tendancies, she was displaying youthful exhuberance.

She is and always has been a very gentle dog, and she would lower her head in fear if I so much as raised my voice too loudly to her. She was NOT being bossy, she was a bouncy little girl who needed GENTLE GUIDANCE. Milan jerking her about on the end of a choke chain would have broken her spirit to pieces and completely shut her down. I'd no longer have a dog, just the skin a dog used to be in.

The man is a quack, and if I were ever to pass him on the street he would not be allowed to so much as touch my dogs.
I'm glad you see that Road dog. If people can't see the difference in a dog who is exuberant and interested in learning what we teach him, whether it's regular obedience skills or teaching him that aggression isn't necessary and a dog who is stressed, supressed, plodding along under duress, if they can't recognize the body language and what the dog is trying to tell us, they shouldn't have dogs. If it's that much of a struggle and fight to get along with dogs, if it's all about war with dogs, who's going to "win," then dogs are not the right kind of animal for that kind of person.

Sorry, but I find very little entertainment in watching a dog struggle and flail at the end of a choke chain or in dogs forced into situations that make them freeze out of sheer terror. All of these posts validating this guys obvious abuse and lack of knowledge just really make me worry about his influence even more.
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
 

Herschel

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#35
A simple disclaimer will not and does not stop people from following his methods. You yourself kriskris said that you used a choke chain on your tiny dogs because Cesar made you think that it was appropriate. This is the danger with Cesar. He's out in the public "teaching" rubbish to the unsuspecting dog lover who really doesn't know any better.
Exactly! People buy into this stuff and take it as training advice, not a show of brute force by Caveman Millan.
 

Herschel

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#36
I believe she is very unstable with low-self esteem, very scared so she barks loudly. Whenever my dog approached her she ran off with her tail between her legs.
Sorry, but I really don't understand your logic. You say that the dog was "unstable with low self-esteem" but then you acted unpredictably to change the behavior?

Did the spaniel mix gain confidence or stability by your actions?
Did the dog run away from your dog with "her tail between her legs" before or after your correction?
If before, then how did the correction help her get over her fear of other dogs?
If after, did your correction turn her uneasiness around other dogs into fear?
(Tail tucked and running away is a sign of fear)
 

krisykris

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#37
The show leash works almost the same way as a choke chain. It's not meant for walking your dog but rather to practice for show. That is what I was referring to and I was not trying to make you feel bad. I just remembered the thread that you talked about this and that your dog/s were really straining against it. I may have made the leap due to your LOVE of his book and strong recommendations for it. I think that was you, if it wasn't...I really do apologize.

Cesar does use a choke chains, choke strings, show leads....he always makes a point in minimizing their danger by saying that they're used in show. His collar of choice is one that will make a dogs tongue turn blue so he can look like a big hero when they submit due to lack of oxygen. Choking devises of any kind are not appropriate for any dog but he does use them on almost EVERY dog he gets his hands on. He even talks about how to make your own (both on his show and in his book) for .10 cents with some string or twine.:mad:
I only used the show leash for about 5 minutes before I realized it was not for me. It didn't help Bentley in the slightest and I felt uncomfortable with it in handling him.

When I've seen him walking the dogs... it seems as if he puts no pressure on the leash until he gives a correction. In a few other training dvd's I have the same corrections are used.

I'm not pretending to know more than you, as I'm sure you are incredibly experienced and skilled in this field.
 

Shannerson

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#38
Sorry, but I really don't understand your logic. You say that the dog was "unstable with low self-esteem" but then you acted unpredictably to change the behavior?

Did the spaniel mix gain confidence or stability by your actions?
Did the dog run away from your dog with "her tail between her legs" before or after your correction?
If before, then how did the correction help her get over her fear of other dogs?
If after, did your correction turn her uneasiness around other dogs into fear?
(Tail tucked and running away is a sign of fear)
I don't think that my quiet action of telling the dog she needed to stop barking was unpredictable as in abusive if that is what you are saying. She acts like she has never been socialized. If I had acted predictably, I would have coddled her and said in a sing-song voice to be quiet. I was told she has to have the bark collar on her when the young daugher has friends over to play; they just place the bark collar on her, never letting her know what she is doing is wrong without the shock treatment. I think that is abusive.
Yes, she seemed to be glad someone took control of the situation by tellling her that her actions were inappropriate and I was in control, not her. I did not physically touch her or scare are.
She ran away before I corrected her from the other dog. She also ran away from anyone trying to pet her except her close owners. I am not saying all evening I worked with this dog; I just once corrected her. It got her attention; then owner came back and the same behavior resumed.
Obviously it would take more time to correct this fear barking behavior as that is what I call it. I felt like she was trying to control everything because her owners were not.

Just putting in my two cents here. I am not a dog trainer, just a dog owner. What should I have done if I was wrong?
 
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#40
I only used the show leash for about 5 minutes before I realized it was not for me. It didn't help Bentley in the slightest and I felt uncomfortable with it in handling him.

When I've seen him walking the dogs... it seems as if he puts no pressure on the leash until he gives a correction. In a few other training dvd's I have the same corrections are used.

I'm not pretending to know more than you, as I'm sure you are incredibly experienced and skilled in this field.

It's starting to feel as though you feel that I've picked on you a bit and it was certainly not my intention. Cesar talk just gets me going, in fact all of us in the dog world who come from a real behavior background have a hard time keeping it zipped when the topic of Cesar comes up.

He really is a hack though.:confused: See, I just can't ZIP IT....sorry;) :p
 

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