Ceasar M. has his own mag

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by dogsarebetter, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Of course, TV makes a shortened version. I do have the imagination to surmise that probability. LOL. But it doesn't matter. When it shows Cesar yanking dogs around, choking, dragging, forcing, flooding, intimidating, it doesn't matter if it endured for 2 minutes or 20 minutes, 2 hours or 2 weeks. It's still yanking, choking, dragging, forcing, flooding and intimidating the dogs.
     
  2. Lolas Dad

    Lolas Dad New Member

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    The simple fact is that when the "Don't try this at Home, seek a professional" and whatever else is said is simply for legal reasons. A person can turn around and sue if they tried something that Cesar did and got hurt in the process or did not get the same result that Cesar did. Every situation is different with a dog and people should not be trying stuff at home that they seen on TV when it comes to dog training.

    There was a women who had a dog in the dog park that did not like to be petted on the back one time and the dog would growl if you did. I started petting the dog on the back and at the same time was giving the dog small treats and when I was doing that the dog did not growl. The same dog was being possessive with a ball so in order for me to have the dog give the ball up I showed her a treat, she would drop the ball and then I gave her the treat. The woman was their watching me and could not believe that the dog was acting a lot better. Now today you can pet the dog on the back without a problem because after I showed her those two things she took the dog to a professional trainer that spent a few days with the dog in training.

    Before I showed her how the dog will respond to training she had thought that was just the way the dog would be and that nothing can be done.
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Does V.S's show have that warning? I have seen a number of dog training shows (albeit, those, infrequently) and I am not sure, but I don't recall seeing that warning on those shows either. CM's methods have a HIGH, HIGH probability of producing a bite from a dog because they put dogs on the defensive. A good dog trainer does not do anything to put a dog on the defensive, never steps over the dog's threshold. He goes gang busters right past a dog's tolerance for fear, pain and the instinct for self preservation. You won't see Victoria Stillwell pushing a dog into a corner or causing it pain, discomfort or added fear.

    You did a good thing for that lady and her dog in the park that day. Terrific!:)
     
  4. Lolas Dad

    Lolas Dad New Member

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    First of all thanks for the compliment. She definitely enjoys her dog much more now.

    To be honest about Victoria Stillwell I have not seen her training dogs that are as aggressive as the ones that Cesar has come across. There has been instances where Cesar no matter what he tried the dog did not change and for those dogs he has taken them from the owner and has giving them one of his dogs. The dog that he has traded then lives at his facility. I had seen this with a Rottweiler once and his son wound up with the dog being his because his son did a lot of the training. He had done that on numerous occasions.

    Honestly I think that Victoria Stillwell would recommend that the dog be rehomed or put down in those situations where the dog is aggressive. Cesar does not put down dogs for bad behavior or being aggressive.
     
  5. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Oh! I HAVE seen Victoria Stilwell rehabilitate dogs that are every bit as aggressive or more so, as the dogs Cesar handles. The many well known, highly respected trainers and behaviorists, many of whom are authors of some very popular and renowned books also train dogs every bit or more aggressive as the dogs Cesar has on his shows. I, myself have worked with some very aggressive dogs.

    The behavior issues he has on his shows are not unique or special. It is, like you say, T.V. And it's all sensationalized to make him out to be some super star. In the dog training world, he is NOT.

    As it was said in this thread, he has set dog training back 30 years. The more sophisticated methods, based on gentle handling, positive reinforcement have been making giant, sweeping and successful momentum throughout the world over the past decades. It's just a shame that Hollywood and stardom is looked up to by the public over and above behaviorism.

    I think though, that if there were more follow-up on those dogs, that was televised, you would see that there is a high percentage of regression. High rates of long term failure have been documented and witnessed by people in the profession, but you won't see that on his show. Sound methods and good owner training will not produce the degree of back-lash that is known to occur with CM's methods. It is a fact that when you rely on supresson, which he does, to "train" or "rehabilitate" a dog, the dog will not be reliable.
     
  6. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I have seen her train many dogs that are just as aggressive as the ones CM has on his show. The perception however may be that the dogs VS works with are less aggressive and that's because she doesn't box them into corners, invade their threshold, push them past their tolerance levels, put them on the defensive. 99% of "aggressive" dogs are in fact fearful/defensive. By gradual desensitizing/counter conditioning, you remove the need for the dog to respond fearfully. But it's far less dramatic than confronting the defensive dog head on and forcing him into a higher state of defense.
     
  7. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I absolutely agree with CP. There is not the big fan fare and drama that Cesar produces in these dogs. Things don't escalate into the frenzied, violent reactions from dogs because good trainers never push a dog into a situation where they feel a need to defend themselves in that way. It's too bad JQP doesn't realize that. They think CM is such a tough, macho, "handsome" dude that can handle the most "violent" of species. Good heavens! There are trainers who work with wild animals in zoos and wild animal parks when they need to have shots or other procedures. They train some for movies and circuses. Surely, the most biddable of species, the most hard wired to get along with humans can be trained without such danger and drama.
     
  8. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    CM's show is the only one with warnings.

    And exactly CP, CM needs so 'show' how aggressive the dog is, or its not so 'extreme'.
     
  9. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    how do you think cesar would have handled these two issues?
     
  10. iibao

    iibao .

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    How did we get from "Ceasar M. has his own mag" to Cesar bashing ? :rolleyes:
    I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but it's best to be opened
    minded. Some of the new episodes he has gotta more positive.
    I believed it was called Shadow (The dog's name), and
    I don't think the word wolf was even mention in that
    episode. And actually the dog wasn't a husky, it was
    an alaskan malamute, or alaskan malamute mix.

    There was one episode a dog was put down. From what I remember the dad
    wasn't following what Victoria had taught him. Basically setting up the dog
    to fail.
     
  11. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    How does the breed of dog it is or it's name make this abuse any different? This:
    What is your definition of "open minded?" Many others and I have seen an ample volume of horrible handling. So, when you say, "open minded," does that mean we should tolerate some of his abusive tactics along with some of the acceptable things he does? You mean that it's open minded when people who train animals animals gently, tolerate what they view as abuse or psychological harassment of an animal?

    And why is a converstation between ourselves, that you and some others call "bashing" a bad thing? It's not okay to dislike the way he mistreats dogs and we should all shut up and not share our opinions? It's okay for politically correct, tolerant-of-all to voice their opinions, but it's "bashing" when others have a strong opinion and do not accept what is being done to dogs on his TV show? And a "show" is what it is.
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I have no doubt it was primarily done for legal reasons. Of course, he feels he must cover his arse. There is a strong liklihood of producing a dangerous dog from his "methods" and he's been bitten enough times to realize it. There is a very practical reason for that warning of "don't try this at home."

    It's ridiculous for anyone to even consider using "methods" which provoke a dog to attack or shut a dog down, when there are multitudes of other methods which will not provoke a dog, will not cause learned helplessness, and will in fact reduce the probability of the dog biting or becoming increasingly frustrated, down trodden and/or aggressive.

    (the word, methods, I feel compelled to put in quotes because it is really a misnomer when discussing the tactics he uses on dogs.)
     
  13. iibao

    iibao .

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    Did I say it wasn't abuse ?
    The information wasn't correct, I just wanted to give the correct information.
    There's a big difference being called "Very dominant wolf mix" and "Shadow"

    He has use food to redirect a dog, is that abuse ?
    It's better to educate each other than just...

    Of course you should share your opinions, but this is about his magazine.
     
  14. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    No, using food to redirect a dog is not abuse. It is bribery. :rofl1:
    It is better to educate. That is why this man should not be a trainer to emulate. That is what we're trying to say here. Is it not apparent? There are loads of good trainers out there that use food or some other motivation and do not use the detrimental handling he uses. So, why search through a haystack for a few good needles, when you can find all good needles all in one trainer? (okay...poor metaphor):eek:



    No, I don't think you said it was abuse. And I'm very glad you made the information correct. That's important in the context.

    Okay...his magazine should also come with a warning. "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME." (the magazine)
     
  15. dogsarebetter

    dogsarebetter EVIL SHELTIES!!!!

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    I sure dont hate Cesar. I agree with a few things he does, and I actually use SOME of his teachings with my own dogs. not teachings about being a pack leader, but teachings about having a calm assertive energy and how your dogs pick up on you being nervous and seem to know when you are anticipating something bad happening. I know Cesar is not the only trainer who speaks of using your energy which animals are very in tune to, but he is the only one that I know of.
    I am a firm believer that if I was more calm and assertive I would have better behaved dogs. Yet with my anxiety disorders I am panicky, nervous, and anxious. It rubs off on my dogs. I am not saying that is the reason for all of their issues, but I just know it makes things worse.
    As a dog groomer I see this often...
    Wacky owner, wacky dog
    or in my case
    panicky owner, panicky dogs
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I am a nervous wreck. But my dogs are relatively calm, (the Chihuahuas are almost sloth-like)....defiitely not hyper or nervous, well behaved and obedient enough.

    What do you make of that? :rofl1:
     
  17. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I have one dog that is quick to become defensive but in a very calm and confident way, one that is completely laid back ~ laissez-faire, one that is highly reactive and nervous and one that is very needy and clingy.

    So...what does all that say about me? :lol-sign:
     
  18. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I know many people like that, or really calm people with wired dogs! I do think staying calm does make relating to animals easier.. but I don't think its necessary.
     
  19. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I'm not particularly nervous with them. I'm just a nervous, sort of high strung person in general....even if I haven't had 3 cups of strong coffee. LOL. I can be very soothing to my dogs and soothed by my dogs. When I'm specifically interacting with them, I'm not really all spazzed out or anything. And if something gets them riled, I force myself to calm down. But yeah....intrinsically or naturally, I'm high strung, I guess you could say.

    You must have multiple personality disorder. j/k.:rofl1:
     
  20. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Um.... is this a plug for acupuncture? :D
     

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