Caucasian Ovcharka

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by StephyMei1112, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    My experience is that there are things that are far faster and easier to teach with aversives or that some people are incapable of training without aversives, not that those things CAN'T be trained without aversives. I don't mean that as a dig, because there are plenty of things I don't have the time, patience, or ability to fiddle around with positively regardless of what type of dog I'm working with. Nor do I really care how someone else chooses to teach them. I don't even care if people don't teach them at all but choose to use management instead.

    Having said that, I'm not going to say it CAN'T be done.
     
  2. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    how do you respond to a dog engaging in an undesirable behavior that the dog is enjoying in a 100% positive training program?
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    http://woofology.info/DSDbuyerbeware.htm

     
  4. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Pops, that post wasn't directed at you. (My last response.) Lol.

    And in that case, I wouldn't know. Perhaps you could make something else more desirable and redirect them. Although, my initial reaction would be to make the activity no longer enjoyable.
     
  5. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    yeah , but it shows that although neurons are firing they are firing the exact opposite signal of what is "normal" or most common. kind of like masochists pain is NOT aversive, contrary to the way neurons fire in normal people. or people whose nerves don't register pain, the nuerons aren't firing at all. which is kind of the point nuerons all fire (mostly) but what they fire differs between individuals and there is more than 2 possible signals they fire. so NOT every dog is going to be able to learn in the exact same way.
     
  6. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    although it was crossed wires, you helped show the answer. say the dog is chewing on a shoe, even if ALL you do is take the shoe you have just applied an aversive to correct an undesirable action. it is not inflicting pain, but it is still aversive. so anyone that says you can be 100% positive is either naive or full of BS.
     
  7. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    I agree.
     
  8. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    I dont think anyone said 100% positive. BUT adding punishment is what we are discussing from what I am reading

    Taking the shoe away is management. Putting the shoes up, better management.

    Teaching the dog what is appropriate to chew, rewarding the correct decisions, that is learning.

    Hitting the dog, or collar popping while the chewing the shoe is adding punishment and what is not necessary.
     
  9. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    You distract, ask for an alternate and incompatible behavior and reinforce that. But that is not enough. You must prevent the dog from engaging in this behavior in the first place when possible so he doesn't have the opportunity to find out how fun it is. You'd have to give me some examples if you want me to answer. I don't know if you do. If the dog, for instance, keeps getting into a certain flower garden and I don't want him there, I supervise when he's outside and before he steps into it, when he's just thinking about it, I ask for some other behavior like come or sit. If he wanted to lie down in there, I show him another place that's just as good or better where he can lie down and reinforce. I also teach "out" or "leave it" to let him know what TO do. I say it in a normal speaking voice. That's for if he's already gotten into it before I noticed.

    If the dog lunges at other dogs on a walk and acts rotten, then I use counter conditioning methods and work the dog from a distance where his reaction is milder. I teach him to focus on me or something else and reward. My little Jose` was quite reactive when seeing other dogs. I taught him to keep his eyes on me when he saw a dog. I'd say, "watch me." Now, seeing another dog on a walk IS his cue to look at me and he hardly makes a fuss at all anymore...once in a while. I didn't yank him by the collar or scold him because they can associate the other dog with pain or a fearful, startling time...I don't want that to happen. Also, what if a child were riding his bike right near at the same time the dog is getting his neck pinched? A dog will very often associate something like that with punishment and will thereafter get aggressive with kids on bikes.

    With the dog reactivity, I taught him an alternative behavior which he couldn't do while lunging or focusing strongly on another dog. The high value treats were more reinforcing to him than the excitement of yapping at another dog. I worked from some distance at first and gradually decreased the distance. As I decreased the distance, putting more pressure on him, I relaxed the pressure of duration...of him having to look at me for a long time. When he had the ease of more distance, I practiced his duration of eye contact. Now, I don't do much of anything. He sees a dog and then looks at me and trots along without a peep. (Of course, he's not perfect. Sometimes something gets the best of him and I am not terribly particular about it.) I want him to be civilized, but he doesn't have to be perfect. He is not aggressive toward other dogs, just noisy. He usually wants to go visit. But I will get my way first...his eye contact, his calm behavior and also the permission of the other dog owner. Then and only then does he get to go check out the other dog. There's another motivator for him....visiting with the other dog. He gives me behavior I like, then he gets to sniff the other dog or whatever it is they like to do. :p Positive reinforcement. No intimidation, no pinching, yanking, jerking, scolding, no harshness. Nothing added that is scary or discomforting. Nothing unpleasant that can be paired with the thing we want him to like or behave around. Pairing good things with his environment and his behavior makes him want to behave in the way I'm trying to show him. He works because he wants to. He does not work to avoid something nasty.
     
  10. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I never said that I never use an aversive. I just avoid using positive punishment. Taking something away from a dog that he likes is not positive punishment. If a dog is chewing on a shoe, I would bring him something equally fun or better, like a flavored chewy and trade him. I take the shoe, you get this. Good boy. And from then on try to prevent access to the shoe in the first place. If the dog is never reinforced for chewing on the shoe, that behavior is unlikely to develop.
     
  11. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    This. X1000
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Exactly. Well put.:hail:
     
  13. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Didn’t see that anyone was claiming there was.

    In terms of behavioral science positive simply means adding something. Nothing else. Even taken to mean creating behaviors with +R its still not possible to use +R 100% of the time. No one claims that - at least not anyone with a rudimentary understanding of behavioral science.

    Did you read any of that link I posted?
    I ask because in your posts it sounds like you’re not using positive reinforcement in the scientific sense. Its not a training method. Its ONE of four quadrants that explain how organisms learn.

    Please be respectful of the fact that many people posting on this thread have decades of experience training dogs (not wanting to call anyone out for being OLD *cough* *cough* :p)
    But seriously, some of the folks posting here have not only decades of experience, but thousands of dogs they have personally worked with under their belt too.

    There are many training problems I personally have no clue how to solve, but if I keep my mind open to the combined experience and knowledge of some of the folks I train with, the possibilities are endless. Hey! Just like my favorite Denise Fenzi blog! http://denisefenzi.com/2011/12/15/what-is-possible/

    The truth is, there is a lot of training that I simply can’t do, I don’t know how to do, I don’t want to do, I’m too impatient to do, I just don’t care enough to do, etc. That does not equate to it is impossible to do.
     
  14. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Well well well. Looks like I've got an echo. :p
     
  15. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    They're amazing dogs, but I don't think I'd own one unless I had actual livestock to guard from serious predators-like wolves....or velociraptors.....
     

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