Caucasian Ovcharka

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by StephyMei1112, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    There is not one way to train every single dog. There just isn't. As a simplified example, I have four dogs and I trained each one of them very differently.
     
  2. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    3,072
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    UT
    i'm gonna disagree. each dog is an individual and will respond differently to different stimuli. some are stubborn and simply refuse to accept certain conditioning/training techniques.
    the rock & feather don't choose how they respond to gravity, in effect dogs are like the rock & feather having a choice so that one feather drifts normally but another zooms down faster than the rock.
    besides all training is some combination of positive & aversive training the names only serve to identify degrees & methods of encouragement & discouragement.
     
  3. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    9 not counting ducks, chickens, and fish
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    It most definitely IS universal. No, not all dogs respond the same to everything...dogs are all motivated by different things and are unique individuals. BUT, the brain works the same in all of us. Positive and Negative Reinforcement, Positive and Negative Punishment. HOwever, NO DOG (nor child) needs to be hit or physically hurt to do something. It just is NOT true. They may seem to respond faster or better but that doesnt mean its needed.

    To clarify...no, there is no ONE way to train a dog...BUT, the way aversives and reinforcement etc work is universal.
     
  4. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    That’s not what I said at all.

    I said the principles of Learning Theory are universal. Otherwise it would not be a scientific theory ;) “Theory" has a different definition when used in science. Its not “hey this is a neat ideaâ€, its a hypothesis that has been proven to hold true over numerous, diverse tests and challenges. Gravity is a scientific theory, but no one jumps off a cliff thinking anything other than gravity is going to apply to what happens next.

    And before we go assuming that I mean all positive, lets not forget that Learning Theory includes the punishment quadrants as well as the reinforcement ones.

    They may be applied differently in practice, depending on the individual, and the desired result, but the principle is still the same.
    Just as a kid using gravity to drop water balloons off a balcony is using gravity every bit at much as an aerospace engineer who uses it to get an airplane in the air. The application changes, but the force of gravity does not.
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    I think where the differences come in, is different dogs find different things aversive.

    For some dogs, the cross your arms and turn away move is aversive. They stop jumping up or whatever because to that dog, losing your attention is a negative consequence. So a positive trainer doing that to those individuals is really using negative reinforcement.

    Some dogs find slapping highly rewarding, or at the least non-aversive. I can actually slap Kaia pretty hard with the flat of my hand when we play slappyface and she gets really amped up and loves it. Now, I'd never do that to her as a correction. Instead of correcting her I just tell her to leave it, or lay down, or whatever, and she does it because she's already trained to listen when I tell her to do something and she wants to.

    I do think that correctly used positive reinforcement is effective with every dog. But not every dog finds the same things rewarding and aversive. Some dogs love chasing squirrels more than they love hot dogs. Some dogs love playing slappyface and hate when you stop petting them. That's where knowing your individual dog, drive building, etc. come into play.

    And while I don't like using aversives, there are situations that some dogs need to be proofed against because they are life threatening and dogs can't reason and understand consequences the same as a person. I'm not against very harsh aversives for it stuff like rattlesnake aversion, breaking a dog of chasing stock, etc. My dogs would probably chase cars and I choose to manage it by keeping them leashed all the time, but for some dogs the safer option is aversion training so that they will never try it.

    I feel that it's only appropriate for life saving training though. I don't agree with forced retrieves and the like. There's something wrong with the direction retrieving breeds are going if e-collars are necessary to teach them how to work, since those tools weren't available or necessary when the breeds were developed.
     
  6. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    Yep... application may differ, but the theory remains the same. It just doesn’t work to try to get a behavior to repeat by applying an aversive to it. Just won’t happen. If the behavior repeats it has been rewarded in some way. You may not be able to figure out how, or what, but you can sure bet that the dog is repeating it because it is rewarding.

    Using aversives is a personal choice, I don’t want to be told how to train so I’m not going to tell others how. Where I get cranky is when the reasoning behind using aversives places the responsibility/blame on the dog. The “I use aversives because this dog “needs†it or this dog “makes meâ€. Nope, you choose aversives, fine. Just don’t blame it on the dog, because I assure you, the dog is not some freak of nature who is immune to the power of reinforcement.

    And yes, now we can have fun talking about who’s dog is a freak of nature :D
     
  7. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    *nod*

    As for certain breeds "needing" a heavy/punishing hand... It scares me that people own these breeds and that's the only way they can conceive of to control them. Yikes.
     
  8. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    30,965
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    a lot
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Home Page:
    Honestly, I am not dead set against aversives or harsher methods if they are necessary. so far for me and my dogs and the training we do (sports) it is not only unnecessary but it is imo detrimental to what I want. That's all I need to know. What people do with their own dogs is their choice. I just hope people are educated enough when making those choices. BUT...

    That's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to say training with cookies is the only effective way to train. It's not.

    I was just saying this:

    And this:

    Is a wrong impression of 'positive' training.

    Train how you want to and for what you want to but don't say the above is what 'positive training' is and then scoff at it.

    I'd definitely recommend trying to find some good trainers who employ positive or mostly positive (I don't know any trainers that are really purely positive) to see what they do and how it works with various dogs.
     
  9. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm wondering when it was that I ever said positive reinforcement didn't work?

    To me, positive reinforcement is a foundation. The dog either does well with the foundation, or you build on top of the reinforcement to help them learn. Some dogs do need corrections, yes, they do. I have witnessed it myself and no one can tell me otherwise because it's just bologna that every dog ever only needs P+ without anything else. It is just not true.
     
  10. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2008
    Messages:
    3,072
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    UT
    if this were true there'd be no such thing as dyslexia nor special education. brains are living tissue and have general functions in common but ultimately each one is individualized and continues to individualize throught the life of the being.
     
  11. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    Ok, but there are so many misunderstandings in this paragraph alone that I can see why you don't understand the practical application of positive training. You might not like hearing that but it's true. But meh, I know when I was making the same arguments years ago I "knew" I was right too, lol, and nothing was going to convince me otherwise. Except my own experience, which fortunately, won out over my ass-hattery.

    I dunno, I'm not somebody who cries over the use of aversives, I just hate seeing people completely misunderstand and simultaneously dismiss positive training. It gets old.

    Btw, years ago, my dog "needed" corrections, and I KNEW she did, god **** it. Funny, same dog, different handler attitude, and the dog no longer "needs" corrections. LOL.
     
  12. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Please tell me when I dismissed positive training?

    This will be the second time I'm asking this.
     
  13. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    Both a misunderstanding (no one uses "only P+ without anything else") and and a dismissal (bologna, eh?). lol
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Arnold needed corrections if I was ever going to safety walk him outside in a timely manner(yup, time matters to me on some issues). He's an extremely happy dog.

    I'm all for shaping and positivity and I choose to use operant conditioning, I don't believe that makes me any less enlightened than the next individual.

    "To each their own" and "the dogs will show their training" but thats never good enough anymore it seems.
     
  15. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    Time matters to me as well and it certainly one of the factors that can make me reach for aversive measures; however, that's a situation/scenario/handler issue, not a dog that's immune to positive reinforcement.
     
  16. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,457
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No, YOU are the one misunderstanding. I never said EITHER of those things.

    I said it is bologna to think that ONLY positive reinforcement works with every dog, every time. It just doesn't work like that. Sometimes you have dogs come along that need negative reinforcement or corrections. You also have dogs that don't and they train just fine on P+ only.

    I also never said that only using positive reinforcement doesn't work. I said it is a foundation. Some dogs do well with the foundation only, others need to build upon that foundation.
     
  17. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    No, not necessarily. A dyslexic still learns by forming neuron connections. What stimuli will create those neuron connections might differ, but the fact that there need to be neuron connections for learning to happen doesn’t change.

    Sorry to use the gravity example again, but its like the feather and the rock. The feather is affected by wind currents, is less dense, has more possibilities for air flow etc. So as the feather falls from the sky it will look very different than the rock falling from the sky. However gravity applies to both.
    The individuality comes in in HOW the objects fall, but the fact that the objects do fall towards the earth does not change.

    All properly functioning organisms have to be motivated to do a behavior. The motivation may come in the way of avoiding an aversive or gaining a reward, or a combination of both, but the motivation part MUST be there or no behavior will happen. You may not be aware of what is motivating the behavior, you may misinterpret what is motivating the behavior, but you can be sure the behavior is not happening without motivation.

    Okay... Positive reinforcement is not a foundation. It is one of four quadrants of Learning Theory. Arguably each quadrant cannot exist without another. You don’t get to make up what R+ “means†to you. It already has a scientific definition. :)
    This is a great site that kind of breaks down the quadrants for the lay person:
    http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

    Yeah, this. Do what you want with your dog, I won’t argue that. But I will argue incorrect information.

    “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, its the illusion of knowledge.†~Stephen Hawking

    (And the fact that most people are far more likely to know who the Kardashians are than who Stephen Hawking is, makes me cry.)
     
  18. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    10,234
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    Adrianne, you get to be the example. :p

    ^^ I have no problem with the above. She understands what both methods entail, the mechanics of how they alter behavior, and chose the method that would work for her dog within the required time constraints. Sometimes time is an important factor in behavior modification (like if your landlord says to shut your dangity dang dog up by tomorrow or get rid of it). It was an informed decision.

    To me that's very different than someone who applies one method or the other, correctly or incorrectly, without understanding the reasons behind what they're doing and why it is or isn't working. And then dissing other methods based on a misunderstandings or lack of knowledge about them.
     
  19. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1 dog, 1 guinea pig, 1 hamster, 1 American toad, 1
    Location:
    Illinois
    This. I've used aversives and recommended them in certain situations for certain handlers because of practical constraints or owner-compliance issues.
     
  20. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2011
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    several
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Home Page:
    This sort of discussion always makes me think of this quote that Sue Ailsby included in her seminar handout years ago. I find this so true with dogs and their owners.

    "One surprising but useful by-product of being a doting parent is that a child doted upon gets upset when the parent is unhappy with him. The more cheerful and satisfied the normal state of the parent, the easier it is to register displeasure. Thus, a surly parent may have to resort to terrible measures to convince the child that there is any loss of satisfaction, since none was apparent anyway; but a happy parent may be able to instill awe and remorse with only a severe look" - Judith Martin in Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children
     

Share This Page