Can you tell me if I did the right thing?

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#81
I'm sorry, but every ounce of credibility you had flew out the window you presumed to make a diagnosis that my dog is fearful after reading a couple paragraphs of what I have typed on the Internet. When in truth, you know nothing about my dog whatsoever and continually push that you are "right" when me, the person standing right here WITH my animal, knows a hell of a lot better than you as far as what is needed for my dog and what works. I think I have stated over and over that positive reinforcement only simply did not work. You don't want to believe me? That's totally fine. But quit shoving your opinion down my throat, thanks.
 

Beanie

Clicker Cult Coordinator
Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
14,012
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
39
Location
Illinois
#82
Barbara, you say you want to be a trainer yes? This board is full of very knowledgeable, experienced folks. I humbly suggest to you quit arguing that what you did “worked†and take some time to just listen, internalize and try to learn from what is being said.
There are a lot of things that “workâ€, when it comes to training animals, but if you plan on making a career of dog training, I think you will find that “it worked†is setting the bar awfully low.
To add to this,
Pat Miller writes in the beginning of "Power of Positive Training" about an aussie who loved to chase horses. They did positive reinforcement training and positive reinforcement training and positive reinforcement training, and it would work for a while and then off the dog would go to chase the horses again. When the dog got kicked and it became obvious this was putting the dog's life at risk, she decided to use punishment. The dog was terrified of the sound of a gunshot... so they waited until the dog took off to chase horses and fired the gun.
I believe they only did it one more time and the dog has never chased horses again.

It WORKED... however, as she writes, to this day she still questions if there was another way to do it that didn't involve terrifying the dog.

She also notes that punishment is only effective when it's severe enough to only be done once or twice, then it completely extinguishes the behaviour.
 

Danefied

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#83
I'm sorry, but every ounce of credibility you had flew out the window you presumed to make a diagnosis that my dog is fearful after reading a couple paragraphs of what I have typed on the Internet. When in truth, you know nothing about my dog whatsoever and continually push that you are "right" when me, the person standing right here WITH my animal, knows a hell of a lot better than you as far as what is needed for my dog and what works. I think I have stated over and over that positive reinforcement only simply did not work. You don't want to believe me? That's totally fine. But quit shoving your opinion down my throat, thanks.
Ah yes. When faced with sound logic its always best to resort to personal attacks. :rolleyes:

Presenting factual information is not equivalent to shoving an opinion down someone’s throat.

Read back, I have not ONCE said that what you did was “wrongâ€, that I am “rightâ€, or that what you did didn’t/wouldn’t work.

As for credibility, you may want to address the inconsistencies I have highlighted in your posts.

Tell you what. I’m off this summer. Make a video of your dog highlighting how positive reinforcement does not work with him. Then come with him to visit me, and if I can’t get your dog to work for reinforcements, I will pay for the cost of your trip. But if I succeed, you have to make a donation of equal value to the rescue of my choice. What do you say?



To add to this,
Pat Miller writes in the beginning of "Power of Positive Training" about an aussie who loved to chase horses. They did positive reinforcement training and positive reinforcement training and positive reinforcement training, and it would work for a while and then off the dog would go to chase the horses again. When the dog got kicked and it became obvious this was putting the dog's life at risk, she decided to use punishment. The dog was terrified of the sound of a gunshot... so they waited until the dog took off to chase horses and fired the gun.
I believe they only did it one more time and the dog has never chased horses again.

It WORKED... however, as she writes, to this day she still questions if there was another way to do it that didn't involve terrifying the dog.

She also notes that punishment is only effective when it's severe enough to only be done once or twice, then it completely extinguishes the behaviour.
Yep, great point.
I have a dog who is missing a canine and the tops off of his incisors on that side - injuries he sustained getting kicked in the face for chasing horses in his former home. This is the same dog who put a hole in his side chasing something in the woods. Neither event did a thing to discourage his chasing.

I’m just not sadistic enough to think up of a punishment that’s going to make an impression on a dog like this. Yet with strongly conditioned reinforcers, and putting chasing on cue, I can control his prey drive (as much as you can control any sentient being with a mind of their own).
 

corgipower

Tweleve Enthusiest
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
8,233
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
here
#84
For a while I was trying to determine whether I thought she was trolling. Unfortunately I don't think so.
I'm beginning to think she is.

I do it with dog, human and toaster alike. Thank you and please regardless if you are breathing or not!
Meh, I like to pop toasters in the nose. :D

What I have done has worked and like I said, only occasionally (like, once a month) needs to be reinforced.
If it needs to be repeated once a month, it hasn't worked.

They just don't agree with the method so I keep giving advice because it's being interpreted like the problem wasn't fixed.
Nope, we don't at all agree with hitting a dog. And it's not so much to give you advice...we know you're not interested...it's for all the lurkers out there who read this stuff and maybe, just maybe, one of them is getting the message.

I don't think it IS training, I think it's just an easy, quick way to get him off the bed.
It's not training.
It's intimidating. It's scaring. Just because a dog doesn't flinch doesn't mean he isn't scared. Some dogs are rather stoic about this stuff.

I put dogs who don’t respond to reinforcements in the same category as fairies, unicorns, and gnomes. Maybe they do exist for real, but it seems a lot more likely that they are a fabrication of someone’s imagination, created because the human has a need for them to exist, not because they really do.
I can tell you fairies absolutely do exist. Just ask the corgis...

It WORKED... however, as she writes, to this day she still questions if there was another way to do it that didn't involve terrifying the dog.
What worked to get Ares to stop chasing horses was to have him work cattle.:p
 

corgipower

Tweleve Enthusiest
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
8,233
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
here
#85
As for the OP...

How's she doing today?

Keep in mind she is currently a teenage bitch. ;) Deep breaths!!

It sounds a bit like what Nyx used to do, and the two biggest things that helped were training impulse control and time...waiting for her to grow up enough to get her head in gear. Also the "Gimme a Break" game from CU was a huge help, and I often found I had to take the training back a few steps to something easier.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#86
It sounds like you got some great advice and that the improvement is starting to show. It is something she'll grow out of, I'm sure, especially with the great ideas you got. (Be sure and deliver tasty reinforcers frequently as she is walking nicely....very frequently.) Keep us posted on how it goes. :)

Great post Danefied! :hail: There, unfortunately will always be people (some of those Cesar Milan fans come to mind too) who refuse and reject constructive and objective criticism and education. Occasionally, they will see the error of their ways and some people are too egocentrically minded and get hung up on going to great lengths to not have to admit their flaws and “lose face.†I hate to think that anyone could continue to think that hitting an animal in the name of “training†is training or morally right. Hitting, kicking, popping, startling, yanking, yelling, and intimidating/bullying have NO place in training an animal. No renowned trainer will ever profess that! And no educated, experienced trainer who uses the science of animal behavior will ever, ever condone the use of those kinds of aversives for training an animal. There are those rare occasions when owners and trainers may come to a situation where they have to manage an emergency situation and may have to grab, shove or yank a dog away from something terrible that's about to happen. But as a training technique? NO!

Unfortunately, those habitual dog hitters will continue to hit, strike, “pop,†startle or any number of aversive actions onto dogs to stop certain behaviors. They don’t think about the fact that these aversive “corrections†have a very high chance of shutting a dog down by stopping not only the target behavior, but all behaviors…. in general. This is not what dogs’ lives should be about. Those are people who should have stuffed animals because they don't do any of those dog things. Dogs don’t understand why they’re being hit, slapped etc. In fact, they don’t tend to be aware of their own behavior…not right away. So, these startling, sometimes painful, scary moves on a dog are mistreatment. These acts prevent a dog from learning because they don’t strive to earn a reward, but instead have to think about how to avoid punishment. That is not conducive to learning...not for an animal.

You’re absolutely right that when people say positive reinforcement doesn’t work, they are doing something wrong. It does work. It’s been proven scientifically to work. The laws of learning are like laws of physics. It is a science. If anyone says that PR doesn’t work on “some dogsâ€â€¦it’s like saying that gravity doesn’t work on all apples falling from a tree. LOL! :D

I have to think that anyone who acts like this must be trolling because it’s just so outlandish that anyone would have such an ego that they couldn’t see the logic in your posts and everyone’s posts and admit that they are simply….how should I put it? Wrong.:eek:

You mentioned hitting, rough housing, slapping your dog in play. That is totally different than hitting being accompanied by a scolding manner.

If punishment is to work, incidentally, it must be VERY severe and it must happen every single time. It must match in intensity the "crime." If it is not severe enough, the dog becomes habituated to it and it becomes ineffective. If it is severe enough, it is abuse and the dog shuts down.:(
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Ontario
#87
As a trainer (who can actually back up that claim ;) ) and someone who works in rescue I just had to comment on the whacking your dog. If it works for you and you are proud that you can over power a smaller creature vs training it, sure its not really our business. HOWEVER when you dispense that advice please expect resistance. I have had quite a few JRTs sent here from the rescue because their owners did as you suggest. The dogs thought it was 'game on' and started defending themselves. These dogs almost got death sentences because some well meaning owner thought popping their dog one was just fine. Till it wasn't.

Bribery isn't positive training. Anyone who thinks tossing a cookie off the bed will train the dog to get off the bed hasn't a clue about training in general. That will train the dog to get ON the bed so it can get a cookie for jumping off ;) Behaviour chain anyone?
 

MafiaPrincess

Obvious trollsare Obvious
Joined
Nov 30, 2006
Messages
6,135
Likes
0
Points
36
Age
41
Location
Ontario
#88
Well. It worked for me. Which is proof that it's not "horrible advice". I agree that physically agitating an already amped up dog will only amp them up more in most a cases, but like I said, it worked for me and I was giving the OP advice based on my own experience.
I knew a twit on another forum that advocated to stop a digger you needed to put poop in the hole they dug, fill it with water and shove the dogs head it in. Nearly drowning her dog apparently 'cured' it from digging. She advocated it hundreds of times. So because it worked for her the rest of us shouldn't be horrified? Great abusing your dog works for you. Need a round of applause for it? It's still poor advice to advocate to everyone. And people will keep responding to it as many of your posts are about smacking, popping in the nose, etc. It's a forum. You want to post that you 'train' your dog by hitting it.. all the rest of the members have the right to keep posting back that your advice leaves much to be desired.

Many people on here have trained dogs as good pets or for sports without punishment that is borderline abuse. Maybe you could try reading posts instead of posting again how wonderful your dogs are because you've hit them.

Six. And I asked for this conversation to end a long time ago, because what I do with my dog is really none of anyone else's business. I do not move forward unless given advice from experienced trainers, and I'm not just beating my dog. I pop him on the nose. Don't like it? Get over it. I do it in training, and whether I communicate it correctly on here or not, I do know what I am doing and it has worked. So, if you want to tell me what I did was "wrong" when I had amazing success with it...then you go right on ahead.
By posting it on this forum you made it everyone's business. Don't like it? Quit posting about it. You can ask all you'd like for this to end, but you keep replying and obviously you've horrified many. We all get to respond as much as we'd like about it. Just because someone calls them self a trainer does not mean they are good. Popping a dog in the nose is really no better or kinder or really effective than rubbing a dog's nose in urine so they'll never pee on the floor again.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
#89
Here's a neat way to teach a dog to get off the bed Barbara, if that's what you're trying to do. Instead of smacking or "popping" him on the nose, why not make it into a game to teach placement cues? Your dog will think it's fun to learn new things. Coax him off the first time or even use a leash if you don't want to wait for him. Be playful, like you're about to have a really great time. When he finally gets off, give him a scrumptious treat. That's AFTER he gets off so it's not bribery. It's a reward. There'a difference. Then do something he really likes, like take a little walk or play a game of tug, throw a favorite toy. Then coax him back up on the bed, (unless you never want him on the bed) pat it, make kissy noises. "good" but no treat. Then show him to get off again, then on, then off. Make it a game. Don't use a verbal cue at first. Once he's onto the "game," start adding the word, "off" and "on" or whatever you choose. Just use the same ones every time. Use the verbal and visual cues as he's in the motion of getting off, not before until you're sure he has associated the word with the behavior, then try the cue as an elicitor of the behavior. It's easy, it's fun. There's little confusion for the dog and if there is, it's still a game and fun. You're happy, cheerful and this whole attitude will make your dog want to work with you...to learn new things. Dogs don't understand primate arms flailing and striking them as a communication tool. It's not something in their learning or cognitive repertoire.;)
 

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#90
Once again, because of the fact that I disagree with the whole "hitting is abuse" mantra, that must mean I'm a troll? You people just keep making me laugh.

Danefied, I don't feel like quoting or even scrolling back to the "inconsistencies" you pointed out. The only one I remember is where you showed I had said that I only used punishment on Malyk, when I have smacked Chevelle before. I guess I should rephrase that, I only have to use corrections as a consistent training tool for Malyk, Chevelle I have only ever corrected once.

Positive reinforcement only did not work for me or for Malyk under me to help him understand undesired behaviors. Maybe someone else could have gotten him to do it, but unfortunately I don't have the money to shell out for a professional trainer and I'm quite confident enough in my ability to train my own dogs. Yes, positive reinforcement has and always will help Malyk understand desired behaviors, but it does not help him understand undesired ones, as I've said SEVERAL times.

And to the person who mentioned throwing the treat off the bed, I wasn't the first one who mentioned it, I simply addressed that I had tried it when someone suggested it.

Really? So now popping a dog on the nose is abuse? What a whack job idea.
 
Last edited:

Taqroy

Active Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Messages
5,566
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Colorado
#91
Here's a neat way to teach a dog to get off the bed Barbara, if that's what you're trying to do. Instead of smacking or "popping" him on the nose, why not make it into a game to teach placement cues? Your dog will think it's fun to learn new things. Coax him off the first time or even use a leash if you don't want to wait for him. Be playful, like you're about to have a really great time. When he finally gets off, give him a scrumptious treat. That's AFTER he gets off so it's not bribery. It's a reward. There'a difference. Then do something he really likes, like take a little walk or play a game of tug, throw a favorite toy. Then coax him back up on the bed, (unless you never want him on the bed) pat it, make kissy noises. "good" but no treat. Then show him to get off again, then on, then off. Make it a game. Don't use a verbal cue at first. Once he's onto the "game," start adding the word, "off" and "on" or whatever you choose. Just use the same ones every time. Use the verbal and visual cues as he's in the motion of getting off, not before until you're sure he has associated the word with the behavior, then try the cue as an elicitor of the behavior. It's easy, it's fun. There's little confusion for the dog and if there is, it's still a game and fun. You're happy, cheerful and this whole attitude will make your dog want to work with you...to learn new things. Dogs don't understand primate arms flailing and striking them as a communication tool. It's not something in their learning or cognitive repertoire.;)
I did this with Mu (probably on your advice lol). I'm actually reimplementing it because the dogs have stopped asking to be let up on anything and are just doing it. Totally my fault but still. Annoying. >.<

Dekka, I expected you in here feeding the troll a long time ago. You're late. *taps foot* :p
 

Danefied

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,722
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
Southeast
#92
Danefied, I don't feel like quoting or even scrolling back to the "inconsistencies" you pointed out. The only one I remember is where you showed I had said that I only used punishment on Malyk, when I have smacked Chevelle before. I guess I should rephrase that, I only have to use corrections as a consistent training tool for Malyk, Chevelle I have only ever corrected once.

Positive reinforcement only did not work for me or for Malyk under me to help him understand undesired behaviors. Maybe someone else could have gotten him to do it, but unfortunately I don't have the money to shell out for a professional trainer and I'm quite confident enough in my ability to train my own dogs. Yes, positive reinforcement has and always will help Malyk understand desired behaviors, but it does not help him understand undesired ones, as I've said SEVERAL times.
Does this mean you’re not taking me up on my offer?

Honestly Barbara, you *really* have a lot to learn. If your dog is truly understanding what you want of him, you wouldn't need to be hitting him on the nose to tell him not to get on the bed. You would be able to say “off†and “off†would happen. That’s called proofing.
If your dog understands sit or down, you wouldn’t need to smack her on the butt with the end of the leash, you could ask for sit or down and sit or down would happen and zoomies would stop. That’s a proofed cue, a cue the dog has generalized and truly understands.

And I fully expect for you to reply by telling me that your dog does indeed know “off†and needs the nose pop to help him understand. And to that I say its not your dog lacking in understanding.
 

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#93
And once again, you really have a lot to learn too if you think you can diagnose a fearful dog over the Internet. I told you we are not going to agree.
 

yoko

New Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
5,347
Likes
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Oklahoma
#94
Does this mean you’re not taking me up on my offer?

I don't hit my dog but if I had time off and money I'd try to get this deal from you. There some stuff I didn't keep up on with Yoshi just because our situation didn't really make it come up too often when she was younger but now I'm just trying to teach her some stuff and it's taking a lot longer than I thought it would x.x


I knew a twit on another forum that advocated to stop a digger you needed to put poop in the hole they dug, fill it with water and shove the dogs head it in. Nearly drowning her dog apparently 'cured' it from digging.
:O Are you serious? Did anyone do that after reading it? Was it a troll or did they really mean that? I can't believe any 'advice' that was like that would be tolerated on any dog forum where dogs were actually cared about.



I only have to use corrections as a consistent training tool for Malyk, Chevelle I have only ever corrected once.

Positive reinforcement only did not work for me or for Malyk under me to help him understand undesired behaviors. Maybe someone else could have gotten him to do it, but unfortunately I don't have the money to shell out for a professional trainer and I'm quite confident enough in my ability to train my own dogs. Yes, positive reinforcement has and always will help Malyk understand desired behaviors, but it does not help him understand undesired ones, as I've said SEVERAL times.

Really? So now popping a dog on the nose is abuse? What a whack job idea.
If you are using it constantly it isn't working. That is what everyone is trying to tell you.

If someone else can get him to and you CAN NOT maybe you should try listening to some of these people who are giving excellent advice. I understand not being able to pay for a trainer but all the advice you have been given is free. You state there that you think someone else could train your dog in a less harsh way but you can't why not listen unless it is just pig headedness and pride keeping you from it?

Like I said before if you REALLY want to be promoted to a trainer at PetSmart you should probably pay attention to a lot of this. They are a positive training only store and even some of the least intelligent people know to research trainers now. If I was looking for a trainer in your area and petsmart had your name up I would most definitely dig up as much as I could on you, I'd want to know who would be teaching my dog. And if I saw that you think it's ok to pop/hit/strike your dog I can tell you none of my friends OR I would be giving ANY business to the Petsmart training program.

And they think you are a troll because 1.) you kind of act like one and 2.) they are giving you the benefit of the doubt that you really wouldn't hit your dog and you really don't want to be trainer and you just want to get a rise out of people.


EDITED TO ADD: Sorry the post quotes are all out of order. I JUST figured out how to quote multiple people at one time and went crazy with the multi quote button...
 

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#95
I'm not taking the advice because the problems have already been fixed.....

This is what..the fourth time I've said that?

And here we go with the comments that I apparently do not believe in positive training....dear Lord....so because I pop one of my dogs on the nose, that MUST mean I am against positive training?
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
3,199
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
St. Louis, MO
#96
No, it means you dont know how to use it and effectively apply it. Again, if you are still sometimes "popping"'him the problem is not solved.
 

yoko

New Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
5,347
Likes
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Oklahoma
#97
I'm not taking the advice because the problems have already been fixed.....

This is what..the fourth time I've said that?

And here we go with the comments that I apparently do not believe in positive training....dear Lord....so because I pop one of my dogs on the nose, that MUST mean I am against positive training?
I didn't say you were totally against positive training. But you are against the idea that it is the best proven way. When you are a real trainer believing in the way you are training is the best thing you can do. If you are parroting positive training but thinking 'hit that dog with a leash' it will show.

They obviously haven't been fixed since you say it needs to be done once a month. That isn't fixed. The commands I have taught Yoshi she does reliably. Not reliably but every month I have to remind her. She has it down.

If you have to keep popping your dog on the nose even if it is spaced out to once a month it's not getting through.
 

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
#98
I didn't say you were totally against positive training. But you are against the idea that it is the best proven way. When you are a real trainer believing in the way you are training is the best thing you can do. If you are parroting positive training but thinking 'hit that dog with a leash' it will show.

They obviously haven't been fixed since you say it needs to be done once a month. That isn't fixed. The commands I have taught Yoshi she does reliably. Not reliably but every month I have to remind her. She has it down.

If you have to keep popping your dog on the nose even if it is spaced out to once a month it's not getting through.
When did I say I was against it being the best way...? Never said that either. I agree that it is the best way. But I also believe that there are certain dogs that could use correction in their training to help improve on top of positive reinforcement.

And you don't believe in refresher training? I have to do refreshers with Chevelle every once in a while or she gets commands confused. I look at this similarly.
 

yoko

New Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
5,347
Likes
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Oklahoma
#99
When did I say I was against it being the best way...? Never said that either. I agree that it is the best way. But I also believe that there are certain dogs that could use correction in their training to help improve on top of positive reinforcement.

And you don't believe in refresher training? I have to do refreshers with Chevelle every once in a while or she gets commands confused. I look at this similarly.
So you are saying it's the best way but you refuse to believe that the best way would work for your dog and you prefer to pop it on the nose and hit it with a leash.

That makes sense.

As for me I don't really do refresher training. The commands I use with Yoshi are used so often there isn't enough time in between them for her to need me to go back over it with her. Especially one as common as 'get off'.
 

Barbara!

New Member
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
1,457
Likes
0
Points
0
So you are saying it's the best way but you refuse to believe that the best way would work for your dog and you prefer to pop it on the nose and hit it with a leash.

That makes sense.

As for me I don't really do refresher training. The commands I use with Yoshi are used so often there isn't enough time in between them for her to need me to go back over it with her. Especially one as common as 'get off'.
Once again, the dog I pop on the nose and the dog I hit with the leash are two completely different dogs. Thanks. The hitting with the leash wasn't really a form of training, and I admit my fault on that part. But it did cease the behavior.

And no, I do not prefer to hit my dog on the nose. But it is what works for him when everything else has failed, another thing I have stated multiple times. I didn't just start popping him on the nose first thing.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top