Can you tell me if I did the right thing?

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by StephyMei1112, Jun 10, 2012.

  1. houlahoops

    houlahoops New Member

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    With regards to the original post:

    The curs sometimes will do this before we give them an off-switch, and I wonder if it's the same behavior?

    Bailey, for example, used to get riled up for whatever reason and then would start doing "zoomies," which in our other dogs is harmless. But for him, it seemed to be a complete loss of control, and he would sometimes escalate to jumping and even biting (he had very low bite-inhibition when we acquired him, unfortunately). He drew blood several times and it was frightening and stressful for the handler: especially since he wasn't being outright aggressive. He was just so wound up that he could not focus on us.

    First off, what kind of lead do you have your pup on? A good quick fix for us was a head-harness (Gentle Leader), which gave us enough initial control to work on the behavioral aspect of the problem.

    We also started working on the command "settle." You may see that there are precursors before your dog starts to lose her head. When you see these (with Bailey it was a rigid stance, quick movements, soft open mouth, and small vocalizations), put her in a sit and have her watch you. Tell her "settle" and as soon as you see a calming signal (licking lips/yawning/relaxing), praise her and continue walking. Try this in the house, too: get her really riled playing a game and then calm her down and reward her. For our dogs and the dogs we hunt with, it functions as an effective off-switch for dogs that otherwise easily lose control of themselves (a self-rewarding behavior).

    Also, as soon as you get teeth on skin make sure that you react (however you want to do it...we just use a verbal "AH" and then give a command like sit or settle). That will likely teach her a little more bite inhibition which will make her zoomies less difficult to manage.

    That said, increased exercise also works wonders in helping the dogs to control their behavior, so I would recommend that as well!

    Good luck!
     
  2. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    I will second/third/whatevers the idea of playing some impulse control games!! The "go crazy/freeze" one I could see being especially helpful in this situation.

    Frodo's reactivity did improve some after playing a lot of "it yer choice" even though I wasn't using it intentionally for his reactivity!

    LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE!!
    For a while I was trying to determine whether I thought she was trolling. Unfortunately I don't think so.
     
  3. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    You thought I was trolling because I pop by dog and you don't? WOW.
     
  4. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    Moreso because you have caused a lot of drama since starting here, at least recently.

    The fact that you "pop" your dog doesn't make you a troll, it just makes you completely oblivious to how dog training works. I don't know ANY trainer, not ONE (even some pretty harsh correction based ones) that would advocate hitting a dog.

    Welcome to my ignore list.
     
  5. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    You ignore me because you disagree with me on popping a dog? Good riddance, then.
     
  6. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    The dog is an equal - but I've had alot of bfs...
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    I've got her on a regular collar at the moment - a head collar we've tried on her once and it didn't seem as secure as a regular collar and she kept pawing her face to get it off....we'll probably re-visit it soon - and get her used to it slowly; let her have dinner in it, give her treats while she's got it on etc.

    Ditto on her inhibition - she's much better in a "normal" situation at home etc - quite good actually. But when she gets in those fits - she forgets all about the concept of inhibition.

    I'll work on the impulse control as well definitely - and your suggestion of the games is great. Thank you so much! You have catahoulas? I've only met two but I think they're such cool dogs.



     
  7. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    Definitely clip the leash to the collar as well as a head collar! More secure, and more control :) the leash should be able to clip on both d-rings
     
  8. StephyMei1112

    StephyMei1112 Blackout

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    The dog is an equal - but I've had alot of bfs...
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    No fixed abode.
    Tonight the jogging thing worked! a quarter way of the walk thru she got that look on her face and started lunging - I first tried getting her to sit - she did but spazed out right after and mouthed me on the butt (I wish it was a guy doing that instead of my dog :p ROFL) - right after that I made her leash very short, put her at my right side and proceeded to jog - she kept trying to jump around and nip so I just went all out and ran like hell. We went uphill at a great pace and around a corner till it was actually HER that stopped - and when she did stop - she actually just settled down and sniffed around! no recurrence!

    So far so good - I'll be consistent with this and practice focus/impulse control with her as well.
     
  9. Barb04

    Barb04 Love my pets Staff Member

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    Glad you found this is working.
     
  10. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Yay! Great to hear you’ve seen improvement in your last two walks. A puppy owner’s mantra should be “this too shall pass, this too shall pass, this too shall pass.†LOL! Keep it up, and definitely look in to some impulse control - remember the goal with impulse control exercises is that it has to be 100% the dog’s choice. Otherwise she won’t learn SELF control, she’ll simply learn that you can control her - not the same lesson.

    Which leads me to hitting dogs...
    I really wasn’t going to get in to this, but it doesn’t seem to be sinking in, so I figured what the hey, give it a shot.

    The act of smacking a dog (or a human child) in and of itself is not that big of a deal. I have two dogs who are very rough and tumble and the rougher I am, the happier they are. Heck, just yesterday I was trying to read a magazine that kept having a dog head appear in the middle of the pages. Finally I looked at the dog and said “you want me to play with you?†and proceeded to smack him around with the magazine which he thought was awesome. I’ll chase my kids up the stairs “spanking†them and they think its great. DH left a bruise on DD throwing her around in the pool - fun times.

    Its not that dogs or kids are made of glass and they’ll break over a “pop†on the butt or nose. Its that as a way of teaching anything useful, popping, smacking, swatting etc., is really very INeffective. IOW, while it may appear to work, its not teaching what you think its teaching.

    Lets take the bed example. You want to teach the dog to get off the bed. Fair enough. All dogs should have a “get off the furniture†cue.
    So you start by popping the dog on the nose. Which you say gets the dog to “listen†to you.
    Yes, popping a dog on the nose will likely get his attention. Once or twice. But how effective is that long term? For one, dogs (and humans) desensitize to physical aversives fairly quickly. Second of all, do you really want to have a relationship with your dog where he pays attention to you only so he can duck when you go to pop him?

    Why not simply teach an attention cue? Teach a cue that means “hey, I’m talking to you, get ready to listen to what I’m about to say.†For most of us that’s the dog’s name. Ever know someone who has to spell the dog’s name (or w.a.l.k. or d.i.n.n.e.r.?) In our house all dogs have a code name for when we want to talk about them, not to them. Why? Because if you say the dog’s name, and they are anywhere within hearing distance, you will have said dog in your face boring holes in to your soul with his eyes. (Okay, maybe not that extreme, but sometimes that’s what it feels like!)

    How’d we teach name = attention? Simple. From day one pair the name with good things. Name then feed. Name then new toy. Name then pets. Out on walks? Name then point out a squirrel, or a smell the other dogs have gotten in to - oh yeah, environmental rewards are the best! And when I have to do something like nail trims or bath, I do NOT use the dog’s name. I simply go up to that dog, and lead them to their doom, uh, nail trimming.

    What’s so great about pairing the dog’s name with good things, is that dogs don’t desensitize to rewards the same way they desensitize to aversive stimulus. That’s how they’re built. Most dogs are built to overcome painful or annoying stimulus in order to achieve a reward. Rewards hold more power to motivate than punishers. If you know how to reward effectively.

    The other thing that’s pretty ineffective about the nose popping is that it doesn’t give the dog much information. You want the dog to do two things yes? 1. listen up, 2. get off the bed. Okay. So the nose popping doesn’t cue any of that. All it really does is get the dog to stop the forward motion on to the bed (that is until the dog desensitizes and then it will do nothing at all). Other than stopping the dog from pushing his way on to the bed, the nose pop gives the dog ZERO information about what you DO want him to do.

    There are 101 things he can do instead of climbing on your bed, including biting the hand that hit him, cocking his leg on the bed and marking it, running out of the room with your bra, etc.
    However, if you teach him “off†there is only ONE correct response to that cue. Way less guesswork for the dog huh?
    Take a treat, or simply take him by the collar, and lead him off the bed (or sofa) while saying “offâ€. Rinse and repeat. Ta da! Now you have a cue that the dog understands to mean one thing (get off).

    I know this is long, but hopefully its helpful too.
     
  11. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    :hail:
    this is what I have been waiting for someone to come and say!
     
  12. houlahoops

    houlahoops New Member

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    With the curs I used to clip my leash to the GL and a backup chain, which kept them from slipping away entirely. As for introducing it, definitely pair it with mealtimes or even a special treat (ie: peanut butter or something she only gets when she's wearing the GL). It does take some dogs a little while to get used to it, but it gives more leash control and keeps her more mindful of you (which is part of the problem: once she gets riled, she's losing her selective focus).

    Yep, absolutely. Again, it's the loss of self-control that you are really dealing with. As long as she is under control of herself, the behavior is not an issue.

    We do indeed! One is ours and I hunt with seven others on a regular basis. They are spectacular animals, but they definitely require some creative training sometimes! What breed is your dog again? (sorry, I don't remember if you said in your original post what sort of LGD she is!)
     
  13. Zizzy35

    Zizzy35 New Member

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    Mine occasionally has a fit of biting the leash when crossing streets. Loud cars with those annoying exhausts set him off. He has gotten better of the last couple of months.
     
  14. GipsyQueen

    GipsyQueen Active Member

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    Great Post! :hail::hail:

    And yes, they do bore holes into your soul. :p

    Since Gipsy can't hear very well anymore, we clap to get her attention. She comes, when we clap. We taught her about 2 years ago, to pay attention when we clap. Clap + treat, clap + toy, clap + loves = Gipsy pays attention everytime now. :)
     
  15. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    I'm not going to even reply. Because what I said was completely misread and misunderstood. I used it to teach him the command "off". Occasionally he needs refreshers. He is the only dog I have to use physical correction with out of my dogs. And yes, I do treat him for correct behavior. I don't just pop him and expect him to know what I mean. And he doesn't duck. I dont have some flinching dog that I beat. So...okay, whatever you say.
     
  16. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    You can’t use P+ to teach an animal to DO a behavior. It only functions to stop a behavior. You could use it to teach the dog NOT to get on the bed to begin with, but there is no way (based in behavioral science) that a smack on the nose can teach a dog to get off a bed. Unless the dog enjoys being smacked and you’re using it as a reward.

    Let me explain.
    Positive = adding something (like in math).
    Negative = taking something away (like in math).
    Reinforcement = causes a behavior to repeat.
    Punishment = causes a behavior to diminish.

    So, using the above, we have:
    Positive reinforcement (R+) something the dog likes is added to make a behavior repeat. Dog sits gets a cookie. (Assuming the dog likes cookies.)
    Negative reinforcement (R-) something the dog does not like is taken away to make a behavior repeat. Dog gets leash corrections until he is in heel position, once in heel position corrections stop.
    Positive punishment (P+) something the dog does not like is added to make a behavior stop. Dog jumps and gets a knee in the chest. (Assuming the dog is not a typical lab who thinks getting pummeled is fun.)
    Negative punishment (P-) something the dog likes is taken away to make a behavior stop. Dog jumps at you for attention and you turn your back and walk away.

    All of the above is contingent on the dog’s opinion of what you’re adding and taking away.
    The only way using a pop on the nose to teach a dog TO get off the bed (as opposed to teaching him not to get on the bed to begin with) is if the dog enjoys being popped on the nose.

    If he doesn’t like you popping him on the nose, then see my previous post about desensitization.
    Pretty much all trainers - regardless of their philosophy on corrections - agree that R+ is the most effective way to teach a behavior.

    Hopefully some of this makes sense to you.
     
  17. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Yes, and I agree that it is the best way to go. But other methods do work when others fail.

    I used it to teach him off by showing him what I didn't want him to do, then what I wanted him to do. He would crawl up on the bed without permission, forcing his way past me when I was physically pushing him off and saying off. I popped him and said no, and when he got off (because he doesn't like being popped) I rewarded him for getting off when told. He caught on pretty quickly, and only needs reminders very rarely. And yes, I did try only rewarding for getting off with no corrections involved whatsoever, but he didn't listen and continued to force his way past me. Malyk is a little slow (even though he is a great dog) and needs to be shown what he ISN'T supposed to do as well as what he IS supposed to do. This isn't the only instance where I have to show him the difference. My other dogs all respond fine to simply being shown what TO do, but he dos not.

    Edit: I am teaching him that getting on the bed when I say no and off is not what is desired and I reward him when he gets down when asked.
     
  18. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Oh, NVM... Just realized who you are.

    You’ve had Malyk for what, 4 months? Yeah...
     
  19. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Six. And I asked for this conversation to end a long time ago, because what I do with my dog is really none of anyone else's business. I do not move forward unless given advice from experienced trainers, and I'm not just beating my dog. I pop him on the nose. Don't like it? Get over it. I do it in training, and whether I communicate it correctly on here or not, I do know what I am doing and it has worked. So, if you want to tell me what I did was "wrong" when I had amazing success with it...then you go right on ahead.
     
  20. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    You ask for it to stop, yet you keep responding. Stop responding and the conversation will stop. Your actions and your words are saying 2 different things.
     

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