Breeding out DA

[Dekka]

I would like to point out that Dekka who I would call DA but I think most would call DR goes happily into Toronto, hangs out with dogs she knows, shares elevators and sidewalks fairly happily (as long as the other dog leaves her alone)

If she gets loose she doesn't' go looking for a fight unless the dog came on our property unannounced. She won't back down from a fight though...

Seren and her have had a few fights but for the most part Seren will back up and sit on Dekka and Dekka just lies there (its so cute!) Not all DA is the same. Uncontrollable DA I agree isn't something you want in any breed. But some level of DA is common in many breeds for a reason.

For example Seren is by my standards pretty non DA. Oh she will snark and snap at times but really doesn't want to fight. SHe loves dogs and people. But she was given to me because she wasn't terribly good at hunting. Not to say there aren't happy happy love everyone JRTs that are good at hunting.. but Dekka, for example is incrediably intense about prey. IME the slightly more reactive dogs have the better prey drive. You go to a JRT trial and see pet people and kids handling some DA dogs with no issues. The nice thing about JRT trials is everyone 'gets it' but still its not hard as long as you know what you are getting into and willing to put a little bit of work into the dog.

 

[Dekka]

I know tons of people with lots of papillons and never known anyone that has had to crate and rotate them. We've even combined up to 3 packs with intact boys and girls before (16 total dogs) and never had a problem at all. One pap play day at my breeders' there were 50 some odd dogs there and although not all were let out at the same time, there were no fights at all. I just watched a video of another pap group that had a little over 30 dogs and a bunch of people and the paps in the video were just all hanging out no issue in the yard. I like that.

Sounds like whippets. When I went to my first LHW show I was shocked. People were putting their dogs in with other people's in xpens (the people were all friends but not all the dogs knew eachother) All the dogs were politely happy to see each other and most were intact! So not what I was used to with JRTs.

 

[Aleron]

If I were a breeder? I would never breed an aggressive dog, period. Human OR dog aggressive.

People continue to prove that they cannot handle DA or HA dogs... it just doesn't work in our society. It makes the breed look awful. It's a danger to other people & animals. Of course, by HA, I mean unstable biters not trained protection dogs.

I don't think it would compromise the breed at all, in regards to APBTs. There are plenty of superbly friendly, amazing working dogs in the world. This is not a breed that is lacking gene pools or breeders. It is simply lacking a majority of GOOD breeders. To me, reputable APBT breeders should absolutely be focused on breeding only human and dog friendly specimens, in order to restore the reputation and integrity of the breed. Cull all dogs who exhibit any signs of aggression (by that I mean alter them), and if certain lines are producing a lot of DA dogs, switch it up.

What you are suggesting would greatly limit the gene pools of breeds very prone to DA. You say it is not a breed lacking in that area but remove 50% or more of the breeding population over a short time and you may be shocked at what happens. Maintaining a healthy population just doesn't work that way. When making breeding choices to reduce the incidence of a problem, you look not only at the dog in question but at their siblings, parents and siblings of the parents as well as the pedigree.

I question how the very dog friendly APBTs you know are tested for true dog friendliness. Testing for dog friendliness could be another potential issue with what you suggest. IME with DA, dogs often seem fine until they are put into situations which trigger DA. If my GSD had never lived with other girl dogs, I would have never known she was severely same sex aggressive. We had plenty of APBTs who were able to pass the evaluation to come to daycare without any doubts. It was only after repeated exposure that they started having issues with some of the other dogs.

Dog breeds are not natural. Most were selected for unnatural behavior and traits. Protective instinct as guarding and police dogs are bred for is not natural. Retrieving prey to a human is not natural. Herding is not natural...wild canines who "herd" also kill. Being friendly is not really natural for wild adult canines either. So the argument that DA is wrong because it is unnatural doesn't seem to make much sense. If we bred only dogs with natural traits, they'd all look and act like Carolina Dogs. Or Mexidogs I suppose.

The thing which makes APBTs DA is not a fault, it's what defined the breed. It's what defines most terriers actually. Most terriers who still retain true terrier temperament are prone towards DA. It's not just APBTs.

"Jack Russellls are often aggressive with other dogs. Same-sex aggression and aggression towards other breeds of dogs is well documented with this terrier. It is strongly recommended that no more than two Jack Russells (of opposite sex only) ever be permitted to stay together unattended." http://www.therealjackrussell.com/breed/baddog.php

"The flip side to the Kerry is that he/she can be dog aggressive." http://www.wildsidekerryblues.com/fyi.html

"While Fox Terriers can get along with other dogs, we recommend that your dog and the Rescue meet first to ensure they will get along. Aggression toward other dogs of the same sex is normal for Terriers and 2 females should not live in the same household. We do not adopt female Fox Terriers to homes which already have a female dog." http://texasfoxterrierrescue.com/Adopt.html

I suppose if one doesn't want to deal with DA, one shouldn't have terriers

 

[Dekka]

Dog breeds are not natural. Most were selected for unnatural behavior and traits. Protective instinct as guarding and police dogs are bred for is not natural.

Excellent post except this part. Dog breeds are not natural in many ways, you are correct. (though I would say humans selecting dogs for traits in a symbiotic relationship is a natural state.. however)

Take the grey wolf which dogs pretty much are. They are quite WA (lol wolf aggressive) with strange wolves. Aggression is a natural and normal state of the wild canid. I would say the super dog friendly love everyone dogs are less 'natural'.

 

[Laurelin]

Yeah I was just thinking the same thing. I would think that being DA towards strange dogs is actually a more natural behavior than being friendly towards strange dogs.

 

[Aleron]

Excellent post except this part. Dog breeds are not natural in many ways, you are correct. (though I would say humans selecting dogs for traits in a symbiotic relationship is a natural state.. however)

Take the grey wolf which dogs pretty much are. They are quite WA (lol wolf aggressive) with strange wolves. Aggression is a natural and normal state of the wild canid. I would say the super dog friendly love everyone dogs are less 'natural'.

ITA actually. I was thinking more the aggression towards human as opposed to avoidance or fear when I wrote that. Many wild canines are quite aggressive to outsiders when it comes to other canines or animals.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Most of the APBTs I've seen that are dog-cold are also not the supreme athletes that these guys should be. If you want the top-notch working dog, you usually find it in lines that are dog-hot. What others consider fantastic APBTs are generally not impressive to people who adore these dogs from their roots on up.

 

[Aleron]

Most of the APBTs I've seen that are dog-cold are also not the supreme athletes that these guys should be. If you want the top-notch working dog, you usually find it in lines that are dog-hot. What others consider fantastic APBTs are generally not impressive to people who adore these dogs from their roots on up.

I have noticed this same thing in GSDs. Dogs that non-GSD people at the training think are fabulous are dogs that I find very lacking in drive and atypical of the breed temperament wise. We had one woman bringing this super low drive, lazy, disinterested GSD to classes out there and all I heard from everyone was what an awesome temperament this dog had. It actually got annoying to me after awhile because this dog was nothing at all like what a GSD should be. Because she didn't display the behaviors that they personally don't like in GSDs, to them she was the best GSD they had ever seen. I can absolutely see how this could be the case with APBTs too.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Aleron, we're on the same page f'sho. I think a lot of people equate "easy" with "good example of XYZ breed." And the people who are out working their dogs know otherwise. If you want a good working dog, chances are it's going to come with a lot of drives that most people wouldn't want living in their home. I'll have to dig up some examples.

 

[cliffdog]

I have noticed this same thing in GSDs. Dogs that non-GSD people at the training think are fabulous are dogs that I find very lacking in drive and atypical of the breed temperament wise. We had one woman bringing this super low drive, lazy, disinterested GSD to classes out there and all I heard from everyone was what an awesome temperament this dog had. It actually got annoying to me after awhile because this dog was nothing at all like what a GSD should be. Because she didn't display the behaviors that they personally don't like in GSDs, to them she was the best GSD they had ever seen. I can absolutely see how this could be the case with APBTs too.

Most of the GSDs I've met at SAR training, who have good drive, have some degree of DA as well... That's just been my personal observation.

 

[Aleron]

Most of the GSDs I've met at SAR training, who have good drive, have some degree of DA as well... That's just been my personal observation.

Dog aggression is not uncommon in the breed at all. All three of mine had varying degrees of DA or DR or dog selectiveness. Jora was fine away from home unless she was really challenged but severely aggressive towards same sex dog in the household. Doogie was selectively aggressive with other males. Lexi was reactive on leash.

 

[Mach1girl]

There is always a possibility this will happen, however you have a far better chance of having a house full of Goldens who get along than APBTs. . .

I SOOOO disagree. I have 7-APBT-who get along just peachy. Have for the entire 6 years of their lives, and a new addition who is now 4 months old. I have always had multiple APBT in my home who are indeed DA. But not to each other.

I disagree.

 

[Linds]

I SOOOO disagree. I have 7-APBT-who get along just peachy. Have for the entire 6 years of their lives, and a new addition who is now 4 months old. I have always had multiple APBT in my home who are indeed DA. But not to each other.

I disagree.

Ok, but that is a whole lot less common than having a bunch of dogs of a breed not prone to DA living under the same house without an issue.

Aleron didn't say it never could happen, just that your odds are better when you have a breed who's genetic cards are stacked against DA.

 

[HayleyMarie]

Ok, but that is a whole lot less common than having a bunch of dogs of a breed not prone to DA living under the same house without an issue.

Aleron didn't say it never could happen, just that your odds are better when you have a breed who's genetic cards are stacked against DA.

I have to agree with what Linds is saying.
You would not see me having a whole house of Terriers and not expecting some kind of DA to pop up.

 

[Aleron]

Ok, but that is a whole lot less common than having a bunch of dogs of a breed not prone to DA living under the same house without an issue.

Aleron didn't say it never could happen, just that your odds are better when you have a breed who's genetic cards are stacked against DA.

Exactly. I have known people who had no issues with multiple same-sex APBTs (or Rotties or other DA prone breeds) that had no issues. But that should not be the expectation with those breeds. If you want to have multiple APBTs together in one house, you had better have a plan as to what you will do if the dogs get to a point where they can't all play nice together anymore. If having dog friendly dogs is a priority for you, there are a bunch of breeds that are way more likely to offer that than APBTs.

 

[Bahamutt99]

Having a pack of APBTs that gets along is largely luck.

 

[elegy]

Having a pack of APBTs that gets along is largely luck.

I do think there are things that you can do to help- choosing wisely when bringing in new dogs, being proactive about preventing triggering situations, keeping everyone exercised mentally and physically, but you can do all of those things and genetics will intervene and you've got dogs that cannot get along.

I've had three living together with no problem, but I chose carefully and got lucky.

 

[Bahamutt99]

^Agree. Management is good, but luck plays a role. As does the breeding of the dog. And once it starts for real, its done. They don't get better after that first really bad fight. (I'm not talking brief scuffles without a hold, obviously.)

 

[Mach1girl]

well then, I have been largely lucky more then half of my entire life! Trust me, luck doesnt follow me...It is a matter of knowing what you are doing, being prepared jus in case, "reading" the dogs before they even know what they are thinking or will be thinking....

I have had 1 incident ever, and that is because Daizy is cripple, and she was defending her food-no dog was going to take her food, but when theyy walked by, Dixie got nailed...Daizy has learned to be a tad more "aggressive" with things she wants because of her disability, the others in the past would take advantage of that and she knows this. All other dogs know how she is now, and leave her be at all costs.....So, if that counts as anything-then it is what it is. Not a fight, just an incident.

 

[Dekka]

See and people saying its their 'training' IMO have been lucky. I used to believe that. No longer.

Seren (not from my lines) is scrappy but has no where near the battle lust that my lines seem to have.