Breeding out DA

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by HayleyMarie, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    So DA is something that is directly correlated with other traits then? (Gameness, for example.) If so, then I agree with everyone - it should just be left alone.

    But, if it were able to be bred out and the dog still stay high drive/have the temperament it is supposed to (I'm not just talking about Pitties here, BTW, but all dog aggressive/same sex aggressive breeds - like Dobes and their male/male issues) it seems like it wouldn't hurt to eliminate it.

    Another question:

    Is DA a natural thing for dogs, or is it a result of man selecting for certain traits? Are feral-type dogs naturally DA, or dog social?
     
  2. Teal

    Teal ...ice road...

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    I didn't read all the previous posts... I am just throwing out my personal opinion on the topic :)

    Dogs that are bred for a purpose require certain traits to perform that purpose. Border Collies would be worthless without their herding instincts and intelligence... Guard dogs would be worthless without their wariness and discrimination... Racing dogs would be worthless without their graceful, leggy build, etc.

    Back in the time when dog fighting was a legal sport, APBTs were worthless without dog aggression. And, in my opinion, dog aggression is not simply a desire to kill another animal - it's a desire for combat. Dog fights were not 5 minute ordeals that left a dog dead... they were 30-90 minute events that tested a dog's stamina, strategy, determination, etc. (all the traits that go into a dog being "game"). All of these traits go into the making of a "dog aggressive" dog, so yes - if you attempted to breed out dog aggression, you're going to lose pretty much all of the traits that result in the APBT.

    I don't think a dog's level of dog aggression, these days, should be a factor either way in whether the dog should be bred. I think the dog's accomplishments and health testing results should determine if the dog reproduces. Anyone looking into acquiring an APBT should know and respect the history of the breed, and the traits that are inherit in the breed. If the traits are undesirable to someone, then they should look into another breed.
     
  3. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I still baffled as to how exactly gameness and DA tie together (this is just me being ignorant btw).

    Plenty of DA breeds are not known for their gameness. Then there are hound breeds that get along well in groups who are extremely driven and game while engaging game. My dogs are tenacious freaks when they run into a coyote, in that they'd continue fighting with a coyote to the point of exhaustion or serious injury because they want to and it's fun. My aunt's german shepherd was defensive around them, and the one time she did start to scrap with one she bailed and ran back to us humans before it got very far.

    So, if DA = gameness then why aren't all these incorrect goldens and labs really game to go along with their DA?
     
  4. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    This is a really interesting question. My own guess would be that they're wary with outsiders, but not outright DA. A wild animal has to protect its resources, but in the case of social animals like dogs one that is DA would lose out on the benefits of cooperative living.
     
  5. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    In APBTs, you can't breed out the DA and expect not to lose any of the positive traits. It creates a whole other breed; that is why APBTs are vastly different from AmStaffs.
     
  6. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    Gameness is being on the losing half of that coyote, bear, or cat and continuing on. Gameness is the dog that breaks it's leg and still finishes the race or agility course.

    DA imo is the ability to start the scratch, gameness is the want to finish it no matter what happens. Can other breeds be game? Sure. Does DA = game no... but you can't finish what you never started.

    eta : I guess as I think of it game = fight drive. Either a dog has it or they don't - there are a great many police dogs where once someone brings the pain they fold, then there are those few where they light up like the 4th of July and could probably be gutted alive before they stop fighting the perp.
     
  7. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    while i agree W/ Dekka that there is some correlation, i think we would both agree that correlation is not an absolute. i think it relates more to a no crap taking attitude.
    I know wolfers whose stags have killed or attempted to kill other dogs including kennel fights. OTH Sonic has been game as heck on hard fighting coons but is/was as dog friendly as could be. lots of hunting dogs that'll fight game hard but are not DA/DR in the least. likewise lots of dogs that were DA but not worth a crap on game have been culled. so i would say it's trait whose ties to gameness aren't clearly known. further i'd say that with certain breeds eliminating it w/o losing working ability is possible and desirable, just the bull & terrier breeds are not on that list because it would result in a whole new & different breed.
    JMO and worth what you paid for it.
     
  8. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I think you're right on the fight drive and have thought that the DA issues with GSDs were likely tied to the selection for fight drive. Of course, it seems a great deal of people now like to pretend like there are no DA issues in GSDs.

    I also wanted to revisit this comment:

    That could happen with just about any breed or mix. Dogs as a species tend to have prey drive. Some have less than what is "natural" because of selective breeding. I wonder how many birds and rodents this free roaming cat killed before the dog got him. Shouldn't the cat also be considered a "dangerous animal" due to his willingness to kill small creatures? And sighthounds are still selectively bred for prey drive, should that be bred out of them too?
     
  9. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Pariah dogs seem to be quite social. Wild animals don't tend to fight often. Only over things that REALLY matter as a minor injury can kill you. If as a predator you are lame and can't hunt effectively you starve, also infection.

    Feral animals seem to adopt this, likely simply out of attrition.
     
  10. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    Oh, I know. I think the situation I posted about was so...unfair and messed up, and I honestly think that if it hadn't been a bully breed the judge would not have made the ruling he did.

    But, prey drive is a natural thing. DA, it seems, is not.

    I wonder how DA cropped up in the first place in the breeds were it isn't desirable? (So, obviously, the fighting breeds are excluded from this line of thinking.)
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Take earth dogs (the true terriers) they need to go down a hole and have enough 'fight' and prey drive to stay down there and engage the prey.

    I have been hunting, it takes a very drivey dog to stay alone in the dark in cramped quarters and face quarry that is of similar size in its own den. You need a dog willing to take damage to do it. This ends up breeding dogs who not only don't back down to confrontation but tend to escalate when presented with confrontation and or pain.
     
  12. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    Ohhh I like this example Kerri :)
     
  13. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    I do understand what you are saying. :) And I agree. But I find it interesting that some breeds are able to have that unwillingness to back down and yet aren't typically DA, like Pops and Romy stated. It makes me wonder that, even if DA is correlated with "fight", there isn't some way to get around that.
     
  14. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    But to me its a different not back down. Sighthounds tend to back down if alone and over powered. AND they know they can run. A terrier 5 feet underground is very much alone with the fox/racoon/badger/groundhog and can't easily flee if things go wrong. I personally know of a few JRTs that have been killed hunting, and have heard of more. Its not all that rare. I have been told many a time if you can't afford to not come home with your dog, you can't afford to go out. Its not common, but its common enough. I wonder what the mortality rate is like in other hunting dogs.

    Most sighthounds hunting predators wouldn't do it one on one, it was a few wolf hounds (who are a fair bit bigger than wolves, zoi are pretty big too, though likely mass similar to that of a wolf) chasing down a wolf. Having back up makes a big difference IMO.

    Having back up makes you more secure, you don't have to be insane lol, but it also means you need to get along. A dog who hunts in a group is no use if they would rather fight each other.
     
  15. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    I don't know what on earth would make it worth trying to "get around it". For a responsible owner, DA is really not a problem. It never has been for me.
     
  16. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Responsibility really has nothing to do with. A responsible owner will adjust if they find themselves with a DA dog and/or avoid breeds prone to it if they don't want a high possibility of dealing with it. A responsible owner knows what they want and don't want in a dog which is why I completely agree with you that if you don't want to and wont' deal with DA then stay far away from bully breeds and other breeds known for it.

    But, DA for me is a problem that I don't want to deal with. Which is why I got a breed who is known for dog friendliness. I would love a nice APBT but for me dog aggression is a big enough issue at this point in my life that it's pretty much a deal breaker.

    But, I do agree with you 100% that trying to breed out DA would end up culling way to many steller dogs that are amazing examples of the breed but also want to have a dog in their face.
     
  17. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    This. It has nothing to do with responsibility, it has to do with preference. Hell, a dog with crap nerves and a low bite threshold is no problem for a "responsible owner" but it's not a problem I'd deal with. (I'm not saying DA is a temperament flaw like a low bite threshold is, btw.) Not much is a problem for a responsible owner willing to cope, but we all have preferences and different ways of living.

    I'd love a real APBT and I'll have my chance someday, but I can't deal with the DA right now. It's not fair to ask my roommate to C&R her dog (she didn't sign up for that), and I don't have the space to C&R comfortably anyway. I don't think that makes me irresponsible. I think I'm making the most responsible decision by saying that I can't deal with it right now, actually, and going with a dog-tolerant breed.
     
  18. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    That's exactly what I mean. A responsible owner won't get a breed with traits that they don't want. I have no problem at all with DA, it's not even a blip on my radar. If I wanted a dog social dog, there are many to choose from...

    A lot of people love Pit Bulls, but they are like any other breed: they have their downside. DA is the only drawback to Pit Bulls that I know of (other than public perception, of course). Unfortunately there is no such thing as a perfect breed. The selecting away from DA would invariably lead to some other undesirable trait popping up, such as lack of drive and the issues that come along with a drastically reduced gene pool. Such is life...
     
  19. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    As I mentioned above, that's exactly my point. Responsibility in APBTs means dealing with the dog aggression or not getting an APBT at all... (Or, of course, adopting an adult dog that is proven cold, as I mentioned before.)
     
  20. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Ok cool, then I agree with everything you've said! I just took what you worded to be something else.

    It's funny you know, I talked to a friend after I posted that who has three APBT's and she just laughed at me about my aversion to potential dog aggressive breeds and how she doesn't even think about it. Which is when I reminded her how she would want to kill my herding breed for his love of his voice.

    I'll tell you though, finding a herding breed that still works and has a low probability of being nervy AND not dog aggressive/selective is not as easy of task as one might think. But I digress.

    I seriously can not imagine culling out all the APBT's out there that are freaking amazing because they are DA. Would not be worth it in my eyes and like you said, god knows what else would pop up to replace it.
     

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