Breeding out DA

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by HayleyMarie, Nov 10, 2011.

  1. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    I was on another forum (dogfoodchat) to be more specific so some of you might have seen the thread.

    But it was about breeding DA out of pits and other potentially DA breeds. I was wondering what your guys thoughts are on the subject. Do you think it would benefit the breeds? Totally change the breed??

    I know that thread got a little heated so Lets keep this thread PG guys. We all love each other here <3
     
  2. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    Oh my.. that thread.. was bad..

    Regarding DA: I definitely don't "love" it, and would greatly prefer to own dogs that are very dog social (which all 3 of mine are), but I do accept that it can be a breed trait. Do I think it should be specifically bred out? No, not really, because that could lead to a bunch of other problems with an otherwise hearty breed. Should it be bred FOR? No, not IMO.
     
  3. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    So Bad. I was thinking that this forum atmosphere is alot more friendly and tight that discussing this would go alot smoother. Ha ha
     
  4. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    I guess my pondering is can you have gameness, tenacity, and the essential temperament components that should make up the breed without dog aggression? My thought is no, you cannot and that owners simply need to be educated that dog aggression / same sex aggression may simply be in the cards no matter how much you love or how you raise that dog.

    A pit bull is not a labrador nor a border collie, they are not a cocker spaniel, or a husky. They are a purpose designed dog and I'll be sad if we ever reach the point where a dog breed is simply a shell with a size like buying a series of cars with the same engine.

    I guess my pondering is what exactly is the problem we're looking for solutions for here. To make pits more average home friendly? To improve their reputation with joe blow? Prevent BSL? Lower euthanasia rates?
     
  5. SarahHound

    SarahHound New Member

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    How do you breed out DA? Sorry, I'm a bit clueless, I didn't realise this was possible.
     
  6. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    My understanding is that you breed dogs that don't have the DA trait, so slowly the DA seeps out of the breed.
     
  7. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I think anytime you breed for or against a specific issue it will always change the breed :) but unintended consequences are usually part of that as well.

    but concerning DA, i'm not sure it's a real plausible goal. I don't know the entire breed, i only know my experience and i've met quite a few.

    Some were DA, no doubt, and would kill another dog if given the chance. I've met many more though that didn't have DA. They got along fine with other dogs, didn't drag you across the street on a leash to get at another dog or anything.

    I think there is a huge variation in any breed, sure you could probably breed away from DA a little bit, but I don't know what impact it would have.

    I've met plenty of "docile" breeds that had as bad of DA as any dog i've met. About the only difference is a lot of breeds are not equipped physically to do much harm, where as a pitbull is driven, strong and agile. Great or bad things can be done with that.

    I've seen such a wide range of DA in all breeds, not just pit bull type dogs, i don't think it's something like coat color that is easily selected for or against.
     
  8. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    I think this would be the real question. Because obviously, if all dog breeds could, as a general breed trait, be 100% dog friendly that would make life so much easier. BUT, it seems like the DA is just a consequence of other traits that the breed is bred for. Not only gameness and tenacity, but what about guardian dogs? Would a dog that is bred to defend the flock/homestead/family be as effective if it was sociable with strange dogs?

    Or, is it possible to retain all of those traits and only strive for a dog that is dog/dog social in its own family "pack", and only exhibits DA towards new/strange dogs?
     
  9. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    1. DA is a breed trait. People should stop trying to change/ruin breeds and find a breed that suits them. If you truly love a breed you don't try to change them.
    2. It would take a VERY long time to breed out DA because cold dogs can produce DA dogs, and frequently do... and vice versa of course. They have been trying to breed the DA out of AmStaffs for a long time and there are still DA AmStaffs.
    3. Imagine the health implications that would come by cutting out the majority of the population just because they are DA. Dramatically reducing the gene pool like that would be ridiculously foolish.

    I got into this debate on DFC and I just had to leave because it was really getting out of hand into personal attacks.
     
  10. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    I was actually suprised how bad it got, but I find that alot of the threads on that forum turn into personal attacks.
     
  11. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    I know. Recently there someone called a friend of mine a racist and the mods deleted her post defending herself and left up the posts calling her a KKK member etc., all because she drew a rebel flag. I'm new to this forum, but thus far I like it much better... a lot friendlier and less judgmental, it seems.
     
  12. kady05

    kady05 Active Member

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    They do, unfortunately. Especially against PBC members. Which is why I pretty much stick to the raw feeding & photography section!

    cliff is right though, people have been trying to breed DA out of Amstaffs for awhile now, but there are still DA Amstaffs around. Sako's mom can be a little hot with other dogs.
     
  13. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    Breeds have changed over time, though. Whether that was for the better or not...meh. In past years, DA used to not be a problem. If your dog fought another dog, it was just being a dog. Nowadays, if your dog attacks another dog it is a big deal. On another forum, Sarah posted an article about a Staffie mix being deemed dangerous and euthanized after it got out of its yard after a guest left a gate opened and attacked a cat.

    So is changing a trait of a breed in order to exist in society a bad thing? How many people actually like having dogs that are DA? How many people actually enjoy having to crate and rotate their pets? If it could be gotten rid of as a breed trait without skewing the breed as a whole, would that be a bad thing?

    I own two dogs with DA to varying degrees, and Blackie was same sex aggressive, as was Loupie. I'm used to it, I deal with it, and it honestly doesn't bother me that much because they all get along with each other just fine and I don't need my dogs to love every other dog. But I'm not going to lie and say it wouldn't be nice to have them all be dog social.

    Also, I don't really have an opinion on the subject one way or another. LOL I just feel like being difficult today, I suppose...
     
  14. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    It's simple, if you don't like the DA trait, find another breed. Or, adopt an adult from a shelter or rescue that is proven to be cold.

    I hate people who want to "dumb down" working breeds like the APBT so that the average owner can handle them. That's not how it should work. You should find a dog that fits your lifestyle, not try to ruin a breed so that it fits your lifestyle.

    It's true that breeds have changed over time, many have been destroyed except for a small fringe who work tirelessly to preserve them. I wonder how many Dachshunds can still hunt badgers, how many Bassets can trail hare. How many mastiffs can still do protection work. Compared to the entire population of the breeds, I'm sure the percentage of worthwhile examples within the breeds are low.

    If you let your dog escape and attack another animal, you didn't deserve to have it in the first place. Only people who can handle high drive dogs should be allowed to have them, and that goes for all working breeds, not just APBTs. I also hate seeing irresponsible, ignorant owners with high prey-drive dogs because they are just as likely to get out and kill a smaller animal like a cat or small dog.
     
  15. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I'm not sure how possible it would be to totally breed that trait out of the breed, so that 90% or more had absolutely no tendency to fight in any situation. Because animal aggression was the main basis for what the breed was selectively bred for, it is pretty likely most dogs of the breed carry the potential to produce it to some degree. It is not necessarily an easy trait to test for prior to breeding because it is often situational. When I worked at the daycare, we had a good number of people bring their "dog friendly pit bulls" to daycare or play time who ended up displaying a fair amount of DA after repeated exposure to group play. Those dogs had not shown prior tendencies in every day life towards that and were appropriate with other dogs when first introduced to group play. It appeared to me that repeated exposure to group play triggered DA in some of these dogs. And with some, once it was triggered it became a pretty serious issue.

    So within the current population, selectively breeding against it may or may not be possible. If it were, selectively breeding against it would undoubtedly change other things about the breed as well. Everything from how they look to their general nature to their drive may be affected. You never really know what all is tied together genetically.


    I think all breeds change over time and will continue to change over time. The biggest reason is because times change, needs change and culture changes. How many Dachshunds can still hunt badgers? How many people still need Daschshunds to hunt badgers? Why aren't there any true working PWD left? Because there is no need for them. I do feel that purebred dogs should be preserved. I do look through old books and wonder what those long gone dogs were truly like compared to our modern versions. But I understand why things are the way they are too. I think Retrieverman said it best:

    "Dogs also exist within the cultural and economic conditions of their time period, which is why I don’t think we can recreate the St. John’s water dog and the Irish wolfhound probably isn’t the animal you want to use when you go to Alaska on a wolf hunt. The selective pressures that produced these animals disappear or are distorted once the exact conditions no longer exist.

    I don’t think my romance and nostalgia would ever lead me to do what Julius Wipfel and his colleagues did (recreate a breed). After all, that project cost a lot of money and took decades to perfect.

    But I can’t say I’m not influenced by these same forces.

    Dog people wouldn’t be much without some romance and nostalgia.

    It’s just got to be kept in perspective."

    http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2010/05/13/the-recreated-ancient-eurasian-spitz/
     
  16. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    I guess I'll make a long story short and say this: I don't understand ruining a breed because you don't like ONE trait. These are not dogs for everybody. I love them how they are. You (generic you, not anyone in particular) have no right to change MY breed to make it fit YOU.
     
  17. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I still think the best way I saw it described was on Chaz, I think it was CorgiPower that said something like "the same things that make a dog get up and keep working after a bull slams it into a tree is the same thing that can cause DA"

    It changed how I think of DA and breeding it out, I think you'd loose a lot that makes the hard breeds what they are if you took out the DA, because the DA is often a side effect of a big part of what makes the breed spectacular.
     
  18. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    Yah I remember her saying that, I also though it was a good description. :) And I totally agree with you
     
  19. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    And if people can't handle the DA in a breed then perhaps they should pick another breed. OR adopt an adult of that breed that is known to be non DA.

    In JRTs there seems to be a correlation between DR/DA and drive. Most of the super easy going JRTs I have met are very low drive. The higher drive ones tend to be more 'testy' and at least DR. Even out of my dogs its a strong correlation. Dekka is very high drive, she is DR. Kat was crazy high drive and also DR (though less so than other mother) Kaiden is quite good with other dogs and is moderate drive. Solo has only food drive and is vocal but not DR. Seren seems low drive and seems non DR (though give it time as she matures)
     
  20. cliffdog

    cliffdog New Member

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    That's an excellent way of putting it.

    I've noticed that in the "Pit Bull" breed type as well. A lot of sporting Pit Bulls that I know (dock diving and weight pull, mostly) are DA or DS/DR.
     

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