Breeding for Size and Mass(Rottweilers)

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by gatethekeeper, Aug 16, 2006.

  1. gatethekeeper

    gatethekeeper New Member

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    Oh yeah, J thanks for the last link, thats actually near me. Well its still a ways away but i can easily turn it into a day trip.
     
  2. LizzieCollie

    LizzieCollie Collie Crazy

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    I really hope you can find a good quality puppy, AKC or not.

    Now I know you don’t want to hear this but we are all recommending an AKC responsible show breeder because you should really find a breeder who doesn’t over breed, who health tests the dogs (hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, etc.) because what you are going to save buying from another breeder you will probably have to fork up double to deal with the health problems of the puppy.

    Spend an extra 300-400 dollars on a good puppy from a good breeder and you will get a pup who if for some reason doesn’t turn out 100% healthy you will be able to turn to the breeder for support. If you buy a 400 dollar pup from just anyone you can bet that if that pup ends up with HD or thyroid problems you wont even be able to find them. Good luck with your search!
     
  3. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I wish you the best, Gate !! Just stay away from the internet. I shipped a pup, but knew the owner and she knew me and my breeding. Both of us were basketcases until the pup arrived !! It was a 2 hr. through flight and he didn't even mess his cage !
     
  4. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Fran, I never said that I didn't think that pups should be socialized. It looks like they allow their bitches to live in private homes and raise the pups there till they are 7 weeks. So the amount of socialization would be dependent on who has the bitch and pups.

    Mordy where do you see they "sell hundreds of puppies a year" ? I looked around and didn't see that anywhere.

    To me that breeder had a lot of good traits that people around here are always saying is a requirement- titles, decent guarantees, temprament testing (argue as you may, but IPO titling has temprament testing as part of it). No one can guarantee that every dog will have a good temprament. At least these guys will take it back from you and give you another pup. How do we know that they then pawn off that dog on someone unsuspecting? Maybe they put them down. Maybe they foster them out to people who can deal with the temprament issues. Yes, they are running a business. But look at the testimonials from people who have been very happy with their dogs.

    I think it's funny that so many people here can pick apart just about any breeder. They can do 50 things right, but if they miss on one point, they are a "bad breeder". Even Redye took a bunch of crap from people here because she was breeding a dog with bad elbows, yet she was supposed to be the model for all breeders. Maybe there are some perfect breeders out there, but if they are thousands of miles away and their pups are way beyond the budget of normal people, whats the point. If a breeder is THAT good, they aren't going to let just anyone off the street like one of us have a pup anyway.

    As far as getting a shelter dog- that is even more of a crap shoot. Yes, you save a life. But those dogs are in there for some reason, either health or temprament issues, poorly socialized, and most likely not from a reputable breeder, who would take the dogs back before they were sheltered, especially the 2 pups that someone posted about.
     
  5. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    Or because owners got tired of taking care of some "thing" or because the family started to have children and they didn't have time for the dog anymore or because people abandon animals when they move in hopes that someone picks up their repsonsibilty for them or because the owner was 80 years old and he passed on. Not ALL shelter dogs have health, temperment, socialization issues, and what decent shelter/rescue would adopt out a dog with said problems anyways?
     
  6. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    You are right Buddy's Parents, but the fact remains that if you are looking for particular traits in a dog, and you want a pup, you are better off finding a breeder vs going to the shelter.
     
  7. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    Yes, there is more of a chance of guarantee, but even then it's wishy washy. Who can tell by 8 weeks how a dog is going to be? I mean, truly. Yes, you can go by what the breeder has provided in the past, but there are no solid guarantees.

    I love my Buddy and I would do it alllll over again, the thousands of dollars in vet bills (because he had parvo and got it FROM the shelter) and the problems we now have due to his compromised immunity. I would go through the horrid, biting, nipping, I'm the alpha dog stage just so that I have him to cuddle with every night. And he is almost a perfect dog. He is absolutely wonderful around children,he is well tempered, very intelligent and just a decent companion.

    Now, I know that there are many others who have the same type of dog in a purebred bought from an experienced breeder, but why not give "shelter dogs" a chance too?:(

    Sorry for hijacking!! :eek: I'll leave now... :p
     
  8. J's crew

    J's crew New Member

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    Kimbertal has a very well known reputation in the breeding world. Mordy most likely did not see anything on their site. If you are involved in breeding or any type of working dogs, you know who Kimbertal is. Do a search on them. ;)

    As for Redyre. I am one who does not agree with breeding a dog with DJD. However, her breeding is an open book. She does not hide anything when it comes to her dogs. After research if someone chooses to purchase from her you can bet they will be completely informed and know what they are getting into. She doesn't even have a litter right now. I mentioned her not because I feel she is a model breeder, but rather because she has the knowledge to point the OP in the right direction. :)
     
  9. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    I did a search for Kimbertal. After 10 pages of links I found only 1 negative article from 11 years ago about a dog that died from a genetic defect. I saw another article about a fire that killed a bunch of their dogs.

    I know nothing about rotties or dobies so I'm not trying to make any kind of intelligent comments about breeding them. I'm only going on the fact that their dogs are titled, temprament tested, and guaranteed. That is more than enough for most people.
     
  10. gatethekeeper

    gatethekeeper New Member

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    After looking at every link on there site, i am definitly thinking they are the breeder for me. They had one small problem. But there garuntees seem to take care of that now..


     
  11. Squidbert

    Squidbert Scum scum scum scum..SCUM

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    It seems fishy that, even though the breeding was accidental, they still allowed the dog to give birth and went on the sell the pups..
     
  12. gatethekeeper

    gatethekeeper New Member

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    I retract my previous statement. Although all complaints i have found were over 4 years old...im very scared to buy from them now. There are lots of horror stories out there if you really dig deep...
     
  13. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Post some links please. I'd like to read them too.
     
  14. gatethekeeper

    gatethekeeper New Member

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  15. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Those are basically a rehash of the same 2 stories, plus the one about the biting doberman. Don't discount the people who have had good experiences with the kennel as well.

    I looked on the better business bureau, they have had 2 complaints in the last 3 years.

    I'm not defending them in any way, just trying to have an open mind about it.
     
  16. J's crew

    J's crew New Member

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    I will post more info on them later when I have time. :)

    But, even if there were no horror stories, the sheer magnitude of their breeding operation alone would turn me off. Dogs should be bred to better the breed, not to make a living off of.
     
  17. gatethekeeper

    gatethekeeper New Member

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    Well honestly the price they charge is a big turn off for me. Its not worth my hard earned 1500-3000 dollars for a place that has had problems in the past. Im going to keep digging and see what i can turn up, but im prolly going to look elseware now..It dissapoints me greatly as they were very close to home..(5 hours)
     
  18. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    Good choice- sure it sucks that they would've been so close, but all in all it sounds like you're on the right track. As your number one concern is health, you can do a LOT better than these people.

    I'm not a fan of Kimbertal either, due to the sheer magnitude of litters they pump out each year. With so many dogs, how can you *really* know where your breeding program is going?

    As far as buying a dog straight off the internet- I have mixed feelings. As someone else pointed out- it's all to easy for any one to make a fantastic looking website. While the internet is a wonderful tool, it's also allowed kennels that are nothing but glorified puppymills to fashion websites that mimic those of some of the best in the country.

    For this reason alone, I would *really* want to meet a prospective breeder.

    And most great breeders will want to meet *you* as well.

    If you get the feeling that someone is willing to sell you a puppy without knowing a thing about you- you DON'T want one from them. Getting a dog from a great breeder is akin to adopting a child- there should be a lengthy interview process, and they should be asking you as many questions as you are asking them. If they're willing to sell to anyone with cash, it's clear they don't care about the puppy- they care about the money. You can bet then, that they've skimped on outstanding nutrition, genetic testing of the sire and dam, evaluation of the animals by impartial parties (ie: schutzhund, conformation, obedience, agility...), etc. Anything to save a buck, and make a profit.

    If I couldn't meet a prosprective breeder in person, I'd want several references from people who had bought puppies from them. I'd also like to know what other breeders think of them. A good resource for you would be the Rottweiler's National breed club website. (The breeder referral is *really* a good place to start).

    The breeder would certainly want references from you as well.

    You're positive there are no dog shows in your area? People in NY show dogs too...even the ones way out in the boonies :D. Please look at www.infodog.com or go to the akc website (www.americankennelclub.org). Search the "Events and Awards" section. They'll have a space where you can look for dog shows (conformation) according to date, and state. That should help you out.

    Sure, it might be a ways drive- but it will be WELL worth it to meet quality breeders (in person). And a long distance drive says to them that you're serious about obtaining a quality puppy.

    Fact of the matter is a lot of the best breeders are too busy to own or maintain websites, nor do they need them. So you've got to find them by word of mouth, by meeting them in person, or by searching through their National breed club and making some calls.
     
  19. Mordy

    Mordy Quigleyfied

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    I've read it in an interview where the owner was confronted with the complaints of many people who purchased dogs from him that ended up with unsound temperaments or died due to poor health before even 3 years old.

    Have you noticed in the pedigrees that it's generally not the Kimbertal dogs that have titles? I also don't think that their guarantees are "decent", as they basically involve returning the dog and getting a replacement. How many people you know will turn in a dog with issues and accept a replacement? It doesn't hurt the kennel operator, since he's churning out puppies by the dozen all year long and has little motivation to change his breeding program to avoid producing unsound dogs.


    I don't think all that really says much. If you sell enough volume, you are apt to get many positive replies. Look at the fan mail that puppymills like Wizard of Claws get, it reads much the same.

    Funny enough, all the really good breeders I know sell their pups for under $1,000, even show quality. Yes, they do screen homes thoroughly, but can you blame them?
     
  20. tempura tantrum

    tempura tantrum Shiba Inu Slave

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    One more thing-

    Here's a link to a list of regional Rottweiler clubs. Someone already suggested getting involved in your local Rottie club, which I think is a great idea. You'll be sure to meet some fantastic breeders this way, and in turn, they'll really get to know you. This would be a fabulous way to search for your future pup's breeder.

    Just pick which ever is closest to you:
    http://www.amrottclub.org/localclubs.htm

    Hope this is helpful.
     

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